Another "linux vs. windows" thread.. Or not.

[semiSfear]

Hello all.

Before I start I would like to thank a lot of people here that have helped me with linux issues. Everytime I got a problem I turn to this forum. Most of the times I don't even have to post my problem. Just do a search and whaf! Someone else already figured the problem out or helped someone else with the similar problem. Anyway thanks again.

OK heres another post note on this thread. This thread is not intented to be a discussion on the whole "Windows vs. Linux thing", well sort of anyway. And before you judge me because I have only few posts on my neck in this forum it doesn't mean I don't visit this forum frequently.

Here's the issue. In school, about 7 of my class mates are linux users, and boy they sure hate MS Windows. So most of their time during class they critizise Windows way of handling things. It can be everything from useless services to MS way of looking at the TCP/IP stack and that MS don't follow standards. The list goes on and on. Don't get me wrong I like most of these guys and see em at weekends, go to the pub, LAN partys etc. But sometimes they really get on my nerves. When I first met them I didn't bother. But after a while I got interested in the linux world. So I talked to them. Which distro they prefer, games, services daemons etc. So I decided I would give linux a shot since I'm a windows user, always been. You could say they convinced me on Windows security issues and problems. Actually they didn't even have to convince me. Because since I tried WinXP for the first time I started to dislike Windows more and more. So they said "Debian is the way". They showed me some really sweet things and I thought what the heck, "I'll convert to linux". It was hard, really hard. After a while I couldn't take it. Too many compability issues and so on. I switched back to Windows. I wasn't happy with my Windows box but I didn't give up my hope on linux.

When I bought a new comp I decided that my old one would be a dedicated linux server running a FW, ftp server, file server and why not even X so I could surf some. Again I tried Debian. Once again I got really disapointed. But then I tried RH 8.0. I found heaven! Everything was soooo nice. Installation was simple, trouble free, beautiful GTK theme etc etc etc. So I shared my experience with my class mates, and what did I get for a response!!! I quote:

"RedHat is for fags"

What!!! I got so mad. There they are sitting and saying that MS sucks on this and that. And when someone finally says "I agree, I switched to linux, I use RH". Then they hung up on the distro!? Come on, it's still linux, it's still open source. Seriously what is the major malfunction here!? Now then... Why am I taking this up in this forum. The answer is simple, I'v seen the exact same story here a few times. I'm not gonna mention names here because it's irrelevant (or how it's spelled) You know who you are.

My point of this thread is to say to all the guys/gals here that "diss" some of the linux distros to stop it. Not needing to say more why. I also would like to start a discussion on this matter. See what other people think, isn't that what a forum is for??

So anyway, my intention is NOT to piss people off here, just a discussion. OK, some final words on what I did after the really nice response. I told em the exact same thing I did above. Now I'm sitting at home, playing around with my lovely-dovely-pinguine-with-a-red-hat-box and I'm happy.

For those that are interested. No I did not convert to linux all the way. I'm still running Windows on my new system. Mainly because of games, and some programs which I didn't find a replacement for in the linux world.

The End

[carrja99]

Originally posted by semiSfear

When I bought a new comp I decided that my old one would be a dedicated linux server running a FW, ftp server, file server and why not even X so I could surf some. Again I tried Debian. Once again I got really disapointed. But then I tried RH 8.0. I found heaven! Everything was soooo nice. Installation was simple, trouble free, beautiful GTK theme etc etc etc. So I shared my experience with my class mates, and what did I get for a response!!! I quote:

"RedHat is for fags"


Yeah, I hate people like that too. For some odd reason, alot of linux "vetrens" (most of these are just people who were able to get Slackware running the 1st time they used linux, so they assume they are experts) always have something negative to say.

"I use windows"
"Only idiots use windows!"

"I finally switched to Red Hat Linux."
"Red Hat is for fags."

"Heh, I got Slackware installed."
"Debian is better. Wussies use Slack."

"I installed Debian this weekend, it's great."
"Bah... it's pale in comparison to Gentoo."

"I got Gentoo runnning."
"Hell, only retards like you would use Linux. Real men use FREEBSD!!"

LOL... you get my point. :D

EDIT: Oh, and if it's not that, it's the whole window manager thing. Shame on you! You should know that fluxbox knocks the socks off ANY ****ING WINDOW MANAGER CONCIEVABLE!!!

[retoon]

Hey, if you want to talk back to these guys at all, ask them wnat the difference between debian and Red Hat is. If they say less bloat, tell them you can shut down services, RH just comes with more out of the box. Ask them, don't both distros use xfre86? Don't they use the same kernel (keep in mind that you can upgrade/recompile your kernel). Can't they both use Grub or Lilo as their bootloaders? If they mention apt-get, tell them that there is a version of apt-get for red Hat. I personally haven't used Debian, i've used slack for a little bit, wasn't impressed, figured RH8 had everthing I needed and installed alot more smoothly. Ask them which Linux distribution has the largest install base. They will say Red Hat.

[JamminJoeyB]

my $.02

Linux in the kernel. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter what distro you decieded to go with, its the kernel that is linux. Some get up and running on debian, rh, mandrake, whatever distro. I really think is more of the matter that a person was brave enough to try something new and different.

Just about any distro out there will do the same as another. Some load tons of software for you on install, others you have to install it. Either way you will get to the same point.

Just in case all of you were wondering

P4
256 ram
20 gig wd 7200 rpm ata 100
64meg geforce 2
HP 8100 CDRW
Evil Entity Distro (yeah it's different and I like it)

[grunt_user]

I agree some people just get to hung up on the distros. I started out with caldera (back in the 1.3 days) and moved to redhat. I actually liked caldera better at the time but everybody around me was using RH so i tested it got used to it and finally changed over. I think that there ought to only be three reasons for choosing one distro over others
1. it works on you system!!
2. people around you use it. This make trouble shooting easier if you are a newbie. Also if you've been around for a while if somebody tries this COOL new program if they are using the same distro chances are there is a package for it.
3. You feel comfortable with it. Although i have tried Suse and debian and can get around them i don't feel as comfortable. mabye someday i will be the guru of all things distro but i am comfortable with redhat and will pobably be here for a while.

[Fryguy8]

debian etc are superior distros to redhat etc because debians apt is far superior to rpm or any ports of it for redhat and other rpm-based distros. Gentoo and LFS are superior to all distros due to their inherent advantage in speed , significantly less bloat (you can build some very specialized systems that fit in extremely small partitions). Turning off a service doesn't mean that it's not there and taking up disk space. Sure it might be minimal, but it's there nonetheless.

If you haven't used debian or one of the "more advanced" distros, then I highly recommend that you do so, then reconsider your stance on why people think "redhat is for fags." While I don't think that "redhat is for fags", I do think that other distros are inherently better than it.

[viperlin]

i don'y know if i qualify as one of these people for hating lindows and yoper

i personally advise against these for people, i recomend them to use Mandrake and then when they get really good they should attempt gentoo. personally i found debian very easy to install but in VMware the driver for X didn't work, so that was me stuck until i put together another "linux distro testing" computer, which shall be soon.... (my last testing computer is now my webserver as i was so pleased with my apache results)

[El_Cu_Guy]

debian etc are superior distros to redhat etc because debians apt is far superior to rpm or any ports of it for redhat and other rpm-based distros.

What a sad argument. Comparing distros based on package management systems. apt-get works with rpm so your your point is moot.

Gentoo and LFS are superior to all distros due to their inherent advantage in speed , significantly less bloat (you can build some very specialized systems that fit in extremely small partitions)

You can do this with a number of distros. Manual installation for some but come on. Point rendered moot.

Turning off a service doesn't mean that it's not there and taking up disk space. Sure it might be minimal, but it's there nonetheless.

Sure you can kill the process or you can simply choose not to install it. Oh, my another moot point.

If you haven't used debian or one of the "more advanced" distros,

This is based on perception. The advancement of the distro is also determined by those who plan to use it and for what they intend to use it for. Getting Debian to do what Red Hat systems do out of the box with a default install includes work and adds bloat. Thank you very much.

then I highly recommend that you do so, then reconsider your stance on why people think "redhat is for fags." While I don't think that "redhat is for fags", I do think that other distros are inherently better than it.

See above. However, I would like to cover the last sentence. Yes some distros are better than others. One thing I don't like about how anyone can create their own distro is that there are so many unkept promises, unmaintained/security enhanced garbage, and useless "me-too" distros that bring nothing new to the table other than window dressing or name changes.

Now enough of the civilized part of the post. I happen to like RH for use in many instances. Am I a fag? Come say that to my face then watch how fast this supposed "fag" beats your ***.

PS: The use of word your is informal and in no way is directed towards any specific person or persons.

[JamminJoeyB]

[i]

Now enough of the civilized part of the post. I happen to like RH for use in many instances. Am I a fag? Come say that to my face then watch how fast this supposed "fag" beats your ***. [/B]

I second that. Never used RH, but you have very valid points.

A voice of reason in the chaos.

[Sawdusty]

I agree with who-ever above said that Linux is the Kernel. Everything else is basically just automated LFS with some extra tools.

I personally don't like redhat because It always messed up every time I tried to install it. Lots of people like it, so they must have different hardware configuration. No big deal. I like Mandrake because it worked out of the box. Some people don't like it because it doesn't work for them. No big deal. I use Debian because it works *REALLY WELL* forme. Some people don't like it either... strange.

Anyway, if you use Linux, you're good in my books. And If you got Red Hat working, you're a genius! :)

Dusty

[retoon]

Hey, I don't know what you mean by advanced distros. Debian is JUST ANOTHER DISTRO, thats right, I said it!:mad: You also realized that you used the word superior three times right? Use a thesaurus. To the original poster, should this thread turn into a distro war, use the arguments FOR Red hat, and other distros to your advantage. I assure you in advanced that neither side will be right, Grunt_user is holding up a great argument. But in the mean time, use what you can against these schlameels you know. Sawdusty, I don't think Im a genius!:p (yet! muahahahahaha!):D j/k Remember, we're all on the same side!

[viperlin]

whats to advanced about debian? i installed it fine, as far as i can tell it's an ncurses install, almost in the style of a redhat install without enough RAM for a graphical.

debian is not up there with the advanced distro's IMHO

gentoo, BYO-Linux, MAYBE slackware. those are the advanced ones (gentoo is not hard if you understand how linux works, and if u don't know how linux works, u will after i get this installed.

[hlrguy]

Well, I use Redhat 7.0, used Redhat 6.1 for a year, 7.0 for 4 (3 1/2? who remembers over that timescale) years, and have been using Solaris for 13 years now. I use command line all the time. I would also hazzard a guess that my wife doesn't think I am effeminate in any way. I could, if I wanted to, make Redhat as fast or faster than ANY other distro. It comes with a lot of stuff, but you don't have to install it all, and when performance matters, I compile the source RPMs for my box. I have posted before, I could care less if I am the only one who likes Redhat 8.0. I am more the 'power user' with some coding, but need it to telecommute to work. I push Linux as far as I can at work. That said, your comeback should be 'Anyone who doesn't build it from the bottom up at LFS is just a Linux wannabe'. For the ones who give the attitude and use LFS...'What, you didn't WRITE your own drivers!!!!....Newbie' and for the ones who DO write their own drivers...'what, not manually in a HEX editor...hack!' :D

I have nothing against any distro. For those with the time and bandwidth to emerge Debian, Slack, etc...congrats...for the rest, use what you want and screw em. When time permits and I become independantly wealthy, I will probably try all flavors...but for now....

hlrguy

[Sawdusty]

Originally posted by retoon
Sawdusty, I don't think Im a genius!:p

I don't think I'm a genius either (for using Debian, NOT Red Hat), but most people do... I expect a lot of people here know what I'm talking about... you know that look of amazement verging on awe when you say "Linux is so much easier to use the Windows. I hate those graphical configuration tools. They never give you all the information you need to set things up properly"

;)

Dusty

[retoon]

I used the graphical utilities as my cruch when I first started with gnu/linux. My first ever distro was turbolinux. I installed it, it ran fine, I had no problems with it, except that I didn't know how to use it. I needed my games back then, so I threw Win back on. My next attempt would have been Red Hat 8, around 1 1/2 years after my first attempt. I suddenly could really make use of this OS, but had a fuzzy cloud of doubt when wondering how my hard ware was set up and even how to figure out about it. I then started my posts here at LNO. I tried Mandrake 8.2 for a little while, didn't really like it all that much, switched back to Red Hat 8. Then I tried Slackware 8.1 for a little while (I mean little). It was, for me any ways, a hassle to install. Not too difficult I wager, but simply tedious. Once installed, I didn't find it all that great either, so back went Red hat 8. Oh, by the way, I haven't had windows installed on my pc since my first attempt at Red Hat 8. RH* has proven to be a very "stable" distro in that all of the apps work in perfect harmony. Mandrake for some reason didn't include a compiler. I didn't like that. any way, now that im way off on a tangent, just wanted to say that there is no such thing as an advanced distro, only because any distro can be modified to work well.

[DerekKraan]

Don't yell at me for saying this, but I think the main difference between most distros is the level of control they give you. I use Debian, but that's just because I like to be in control, and I like apt-get. I used Mandrake, but it didn't offer me the same level of control. Plus rpm's started getting on my nerves just a little bit, but nothing too big.

As for me, I'll be putting together probably LFS sometime, just for a challenge. Then I'll practice, and keep increasing my linux knowledge til I can install whatever I want and have it running really really quickly all the time. Right now I'm just figuring out the intricacies of Debian, and then I'll probably get Slackware on my next computer.

[Fryguy8]

wow I got hella flamed by somebody, so here comes my comeback.

rpms are nowhere near as good as .debs. why? they have automated download, and their dependency tree is much more strict than rpms. Meaning when you apt-get something, it installs, no messing around trying to find it's dependencies. If you think rpms are better than .debs, then I don't know what's up with you.

And last time I checked redhat can't build a system completely optimized for a specific processor with a very detailed set of optimizations. This speed increase is significant when applied to a whole system. For example, my LFS system boots from me pressing enter at grub to a login: prompt in about 3 seconds, and that's with 3 servers and some other things starting. Not that that's a good indication of speed, it's just an example.

And if redhat is so good and fine, then why do most users, when they get more experience and want a better linux system, move on to other distros that are arguably more advanced? Sure some stay because they are just experimenting, or they have the same mindset as you. Anyone who feels they have the knowledge to move on to other distros usually does however.

[bwkaz]

Listen guys (copper guy especially), let's keep this civil. Respond if you think you have to (actually, I think I will... hang on a second), but if you don't keep it decent (remember, there are kids reading this) I'm closing the thread.

As for this:

they have automated download, and their dependency tree is much more strict than rpms. Meaning when you apt-get something, it installs, no messing around trying to find it's dependencies. Well yes, apt has an automatic download, but apt is just a front-end. You cannot compare apt and rpm -- to compare anything to rpm, you would have to use dpkg. To compare apt to something, compare it to urpmi (granted, urpmi is Mandrake only, but apt-rpm installs an actual version of apt for RH systems, and Red Carpet (from Ximian) does effectively the same thing), which does the same as apt does.

You can't compare apples and oranges, guys. You can't compare a frontend for a package manager (apt) to a package manager itself (rpm). ;)

[Gunney]

Originally posted by semiSfear
So I shared my experience with my class mates, and what did I get for a response!!! I quote:

"RedHat is for fags"



Your classmates are bigoted morons
who will never have a real job in their
entire "career".


Gunney

[MartinB]

Funny they should say that about RedHat... I had a friend who actually uses RedHat respond to me by saying "Do you want to be a newbie for the rest of your life!?" when I told him that I was still using Mandrake (about 4 months after I had started using it)

[MB[DK]]

I like Red Hat, I like Mandrake 9.1, I like Suse 8.1

What I don't like is Debian. I tried it, it sucked, and I quickly reverted to Red Hat. Sure apt-get is nice, but hey the apt4rpm works too, except there aren't that many packages for it yet imo, but I understand that Gentoo portage or mandrake urpmi are quite good also.

I wish Red Hat would be a little quicker with new packages, such as kde3.1 or preferrably Gnome2.2.

Red Hats up2date function is cool.
Suse YAST2 is cool.

There is nothing wrong in preferring the larger more commercial distros such as Suse, Redhat and Mandrake.

[Raoul_Duke]

What a surprising amount of anger at such a silly point :(

I've spent decent amounts of time with RedHat, Gentoo, Mandrake and Debian. I used them all and took an informed decision which to stick with (i even went back and tried debian again to be sure). I now stick with Gentoo. I have no conception of why people would get so angry at people's distro choice :confused:

You know, i didn't like Mandrake becuase it 'held my hand' too much...........i didn't like Debian because it's difficult to maintain a system that is part stable, part testing and part unstable..........i liked Redhat because it was very slick, the scalable fonts and unified themes across KDE/Gnome was very impressive. Apt-Rpm 4 Redhat is a very powerful tool that is only let down by a below-par amount of packages. Tweaking it to run as well as over distros really isn't that difficult...........and, at first, i didn't like Gentoo because i am impatient hehe.

But hey, it took me 5 minutes to realise that everyone's views/experiences were different. Trying to argue that one distro is technically better than another does not mean it's better for everyone...!!!

Like i said, i love my Gentoo box but we get people posting at the Gentoo forum whose experiences have been very different to mine...............work it out peeps. it's not difficult or important which flavour of linux people use if they are happy...!!

Blimey, i got quite worked up then :D

[saithan]

distro bigoting is usually based on nothing more than
"you are not using what I'm using so .....".
I have used redhat7.0 - 7.3(still do), debian (still do), and slackware.

other than placment of the files and some file system diferences I can function the same across each distro without issue.

the CLI is there weather it is redhat or slack.

sometimes it is nice to have a few auto device configure tools Like those in redhat, mandrake, suse ect. not all users of linux concentrate their interest in every crevice of knowlege on how the hardware interfaces the OS.

In Redhat I can compile the kernel, drivers, software ect. all the same as I do in slackware and debian.

on the issue of rpm vs deb(apt-get) well IMO deb is better because apt deb repositories are strict as to the dependencies used by the packages. Not saying that RPM repositories could not gain the same quality of service. However look at the amount of apt-get deb software available compaired to the amount of rpms it would be a hell of a feate to get the amount of RPMs wiped into shape.

to the starter of this thread:
Never mind what your friends say. If you like redhat then continue to use it and learn all the same tools are there or can be installed.
later ifyou feel the desire to become umber geek and delve deeper into the OS and hardware then try a less newbie friendly distro.
newbie friendly != crippled

anyways good luck and enjoy.

[rtr]

i just like having the freedom of all the choices. ;)

[semiSfear]

WOW!

Well then.. It has now been about 24 hours when I started this thread. I never thought the responses would be 2 pages long :eek:

Lots of interesting points here. I would like to respond to a lot of em but to be honest... It would take too much of my time :p

But just to say a few words. Yes this thread became more of a distro war, but hey why not. Like I said before this is a forum, and what I understand a forum is for discussions.

Now my 0.1$ on this matter. Yes RedHat may not be a distro for system optimizing. BUT you can't say it's NOT one of the best distros out there for people that runs linux for the first time. Same goes for Mandrake. Like someone here said "You get more out of the box". Maybe some day when I feel more secure in the linux world I will try Gentoo or Slackware and do some serious system tweaking. But as I feel now I get a whole pre configured system from RedHat in only 10 to 15 mins, and thats the way I like it at the moment. Now the whole thing about package managers. I can only say one thing, run what you feel comfortable with. Sure I agree that apt-get and dpkg is a bit better than rpms and so on but still apt-get and dpkg is just a small part of Debian. And I wouldn't trade Redhat just to get apt-get.

Keep the discussion going and thanks for all the serious replies :)