Let's hear it!

[glaston]

Question.

Do you support the Israelis? And why?

No trolling here. I'm just curious as to how many actually know WHY you or your gov support Israel?
Or how many do because it's "PC".

[Elijah]

edit: never mind

[williamwbishop]

No, you are not really interested. You are trolling. But if you must know, go see my post after yours in the columbia thread. Where you started an anti-semitic(calling yourself that is a guaranteed dumbass label) troll after someone else started another.

[glaston]

No, you are not really interested. You are trolling. Actually, that thread made me wonder how many people know why they support them? And made me wonder how many here actually don't support them.
But if you don't want to answer, that's fine too.

And if you don't know what's up with Israel, read something! Then come back and answer my question.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by glaston
Actually, that thread made me wonder how many people know why they support them? And made me wonder how many here actually don't support them.
But if you don't want to answer, that's fine too.

And if you don't know what's up with Israel, read something! Then come back and answer my question.

I know a great deal about israel. Apparently not from the same rag you call "authoritative". You didn't specify if you meant support israelis as in, let them live, or support as in financial. Since you are anti-semitic, I'm guessing you would like to continue gassing them. Personally, I support their right to live, but don't support tax dollars maintaining their military. Huge difference between the two.

[williamwbishop]

I'm still interested in finding out if you believe that minus the jewish people, if there would be peace in the middle east. You seem awfully worried about the arabs being killed. Keeping in mind that there has been constant tribal and national warfare amongst the arab populations for nearly 6000 years of recorded history.

[glyph]

i think israel is america's little 'war seedling'.
by blindly(?) supporting israel, america's leadership and what their intentions are should be suspect. can you imagine our government doing to us what israel is doing to the palestinians? bulldozing houses, orchards, bombing police/political buildings, ect. by condoning and supporting israel, american leaders are committing these crimes by proxy. americans who follow their leaders once this kind of criminality is obvious, are criminally negligent. this kind of conduct should alarm anybody who can see the danger this behavior represents - it's warmongering. i don't approve of israel or america.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by glyph
i think israel is america's little 'war seedling'.
by blindly(?) supporting israel, america's leadership and what their intentions are should be suspect. can you imagine our government doing to us what israel is doing to the palestinians? bulldozing houses, orchards, bombing police/political buildings, ect. by condoning and supporting israel, american leaders are committing these crimes by proxy. americans who follow their leaders once this kind of criminality is obvious, are criminally negligent. this kind of conduct should alarm anybody who can see the danger this behavior represents - it's warmongering. i don't approve of israel or america.

But america has done these things. I am confused. Are you angry because we support another nation who does these things? Personally, as said before, I wish we would keep our money to support our own hungry and needy...but that is just me. That is the philosophical me. The reality me, it sees the strategic value of the nation, and weighs that against the cost in lives and favours the continuance of it. It is not right, but it is what happens. We do not blindly follow israel. We have as much of an agenda as they do. What do you think would happen if we took our hands off the bridle?

[glaston]

I'm still interested in finding out if you believe that minus the jewish people, if there would be peace in the middle east. You seem awfully worried about the arabs being killed. Keeping in mind that there has been constant tribal and national warfare amongst the arab populations for nearly 6000 years of recorded history. Go there, read that!
I don't look at these issues like most people. I don' think of it as everything should be fair, and nobody should be dying. Although that would be nice, it's not realistic.
I prefer to look at it as which side I agree with more.
Now, if the Israelis want that land, then they should do what all other land conquerors have done. Slaughter the people and get it over with! But they are doing it slowly, and severely prolonging the entire affair. And I don't agree with that!
Now, the Palestinians. I know what I would do if I was kicked out of my land in the same manner. That's what they're doing! So I feel for the Palestinian plight a little more than the Israelis. The Palestinians are much poorer, where the Israelis are much wealthier.
And I usually root for the underdog in most cases such as that.
Anything else?

Glyph, great answer! That's what I'm looking for. Real answers. Not dancing around the subject, and calling trolls and refusing to play.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by glaston
Go there, read that!
I don't look at these issues like most people. I don' think of it as everything should be fair, and nobody should be dying. Although that would be nice, it's not realistic.
I prefer to look at it as which side I agree with more.
Now, if the Israelis want that land, then they should do what all other land conquerors have done. Slaughter the people and get it over with! But they are doing it slowly, and severely prolonging the entire affair. And I don't agree with that!
Now, the Palestinians. I know what I would do if I was kicked out of my land in the same manner. That's what they're doing! So I feel for the Palestinian plight a little more than the Israelis. The Palestinians are much poorer, where the Israelis are much wealthier.
And I usually root for the underdog in most cases such as that.
Anything else?

Glyph, great answer! That's what I'm looking for. Real answers. Not dancing around the subject, and calling trolls and refusing to play.

How is that any different than any other nation doing the same thing then? You can't take the underdog, no matter who it is. That is not rational thinking. And I did not refuse to play, where in my other posts do you see a refusal to play? I think I answered it in fair detail given the alloted space. I did not give vague feelings, or "they're the underdog" or emotional rants. I gave a concise argument, please respond with the same. As I said, the palestinians have no more claim to the land than anyone else. If they had not been part of the arab countries that tried to invade israel, it would be different, but they were. Israel won the war, and thus the land.

[williamwbishop]

You should have said " I only want emotional responses if that is what you were after". Foul.

[glyph]

"But america has done these things. I am confused. Are you angry because we support another nation who does these things? Personally, as said before, I wish we would keep our money to support our own hungry and needy...but that is just me. That is the philosophical me. The reality me, it sees the strategic value of the nation, and weighs that against the cost in lives and favours the continuance of it. It is not right, but it is what happens. We do not blindly follow israel. We have as much of an agenda as they do. What do you think would happen if we took our hands off the bridle?"

what is the strategic value of israel in your opinion? i think it is a flash point for another war.
in a political sense, america and israel are one, and the enemy isn't arabs, muslims, ect. - it's man in general, americans included - for the enrichment of those who love power over man. i suppose if 'we took our hands off the bridle', it would be like saying: 'if we don't hit'em with our right hand, we'll have to hit'em with our left.....and we don't want that!!' i think isreal is a strategic asset because it is thru israel that we can provoke a war when the rich industrialists of the world can't have more than their share. israel is like an mask that america wears to deceive it's strategic targets.

[glyph]

Originally posted by glaston

Now, if the Israelis want that land, then they should do what all other land conquerors have done. Slaughter the people and get it over with! But they are doing it slowly, and severely prolonging the entire affair. And I don't agree with that!

you know, i've often wondered that what is happening to the palestinians is just a precursor to a larger scheme; that the methods being practiced on the palestians are being rehearsed and refined for a larger purpose. this is why i feel threatened by the abuses of the israeli government and our alliance with them. it's demoralizing enough to stand by while our government does all it can to assist the israelis in breaking the spirit of the palestinian people, then you have to wonder if your government will do this to you too, with the lessons learned by the israelis in their domination of the palestinians.

[The Ennead IX]

The question isn't valid, it assumes too much. I support those people of any nation who want peace or who strive for peace, and that includes those who use war as a last right resort in the struggle for peace. The Israeli government is using war for the purpose of genocide and I cannot condone that. Yes, there are Palestinians who are equally as bad. My support goes with the people of the Ta'ayush and all others who strive for an Arab/Jewish partnership.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by glyph
"But america has done these things. I am confused. Are you angry because we support another nation who does these things? Personally, as said before, I wish we would keep our money to support our own hungry and needy...but that is just me. That is the philosophical me. The reality me, it sees the strategic value of the nation, and weighs that against the cost in lives and favours the continuance of it. It is not right, but it is what happens. We do not blindly follow israel. We have as much of an agenda as they do. What do you think would happen if we took our hands off the bridle?"

what is the strategic value of israel in your opinion? i think it is a flash point for another war.
in a political sense, america and israel are one, and the enemy isn't arabs, muslims, ect. - it's man in general, americans included - for the enrichment of those who love power over man. i suppose if 'we took our hands off the bridle', it would be like saying: 'if we don't hit'em with our right hand, we'll have to hit'em with our left.....and we don't want that!!' i think isreal is a strategic asset because it is thru israel that we can provoke a war when the rich industrialists of the world can't have more than their share. israel is like an mask that america wears to deceive it's strategic targets.

But you are thinking in terms too radical. It is nothing so simple. In the beginning, we needed the buffer zone, even into today, we need israel to keep a compact from forming. Yes, it is financial too. But it is also strategic. It has been policy for a very long time, to keep nations from combining that could become too powerful, especially those who could achieve it financially. What would be the end result of not many separate nations, but one arabic nation, all the wealth and power therein, in the hands of a man like saddam hussein? Can you imagine the danger to the world, if such a radical nation existed? We will never allow another hitler. We won't even allow the chance of it. America thinks of itself as the powerbroker, and the police enforcer. The U.N. is incapable of unilateral action, we all know this. What would be the result of said arabic nation, fundamentalist(because that is what comes to power in the middle east, time and time again) with all of those finances, but now with a large tactical arsenal? Would the U.N. stop it? No. You are thinking in terms of abstract right and wrong. The men in power, behind the figureheads, all play the same game. Why do you think the support is there for the U.S's movements? Because all of these decisions are not made by the U.S. alone? Not a chance. Sure, I disagree with some of the people we support, but I see the reason for it. For that matter, the ones who end up being problems, are usually the ones we PUT in power in the first place. But we usually police our own colonies. Who armed Iraq? Now you know how we realize that they are a threat. We know it because we put it there. We put it there in a time when the world was fighting communism and we followed the arabic rule of friendship. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". It doesn't make for loving, or lasting relationships, but it serves the purpose. Now we are cleaning up the debris from that war(albeit a cold one). That is why you have seen us going quite rapidly through our once-allies since the early 80's. That is the why behind panama, the why behind all of the other incursions. We have different goals now, but they are the same. We now fight to keep the world as stable as possible. The middle east would have been a sheet of glass 20 years ago if we did not keep a tight rein on it. Not a boast, a reality. We are not israels pawn, it is quite the opposite. You are thinking in terms of right and wrong, when you should be thinking in terms of chess. Yes, ethical behaviour is nice, but it doesn't win against and enemy who has none. I support my nation, despite the fact that it does some things to me that are terrible, but who else is going to do it? We get mud in our face daily, but we go back out and fight again the next day. Everyone thinks we want power, but when was the last time we actually kept possession of a land we invaded? We don't want more area, we could have had it a thousand times over. The guys running things maybe should be wearing the black cowboy hats, but they want the white hat. It is their goal. Sometimes you just have to do things that are distasteful to you in the pursuit of the common good. It has been thus for thousands of years.

[glaston]

You should have said " I only want emotional responses if that is what you were after". That's not what I'm after though! I'm looking for ANY responses. Just to get an idea of what everyone believes. I'm not looking to win anything here. As I stated, I'm just wondering on this. I'm not looking for answers that allow me an avenue to attack others on. That seems like something you'd do WB.
I'd be happy if all I had to do with this thread was read it, I don't necessarily HAVE to respond in any way.

You stated your stand on this WB. Your preference is that the US stop financial support to israel! So why do you insist on challenging anyones opinion that isn't the same as yours? If everyone shared your opinion, then this wouldn't even be an issue would it? So why do you think it necessary to make one post after another, raving about how stupid everyone is for not sharing your opinion?

I share your opinion on this in a way. I would prefer the US didn't support Israel. That wouldn't stop the problem though! If that happened, it would be all out chaos surely.

So when asked how I feel about Israel vs Palestinians, I take the Palestinian side. Because I understand there plight more, and because I always root for the underdog. And because if it was me, and I was israel. I would just strategically wipe the Palestinians out. No prolonging it, allowing people to die everyday. Just make alot of people die in a short time period, so then it can be laid to rest in some fashion.
If you disagree with the substance of my opinion, then fine say it. But don't tell me you don't accept my opinion, or attempt to impose rules on the criteria I have to use to form my opinion!

Israel won the war, and thus the land. Seems to me that the war isn't over yet! Or do you have rules on this too? It's not a tennis match! There are no time periods on how long the war runs, or the action to take to end it. When the war is over, we'll know believe me!

I gave a concise argument, please respond with the same. Why? Because that's what you expect? Why are you suddenly making rules here?

This thread was started to get an idea of who supports Israel, and why.
The columbian propoganda thread is where the argument you're looking for is taking place. Why are you bringing it here?

The subject at hand is irrational, and the actions taken by both Israel and Palestine are irrational. So how are we supposed to discuss this in this rational form you so desire?
We can sit here til the end of time throwing fact after fact at each other over this. But in the end, our opinions aren't based solely on fact. And even if they were it doesn't matter.
The situation itself over there is emotional based. They aren't weighing out facts and acting on that. There are people being killed on both sides! I think it's safe to say that it's a very emotional situation!

After weighing out all the facts on it, and coming to the conclusion that based on the facts, it simply shouldn't be happening. But yet it still is, then you hav to look at it from an emotional standpoint.
Fact is that it shouldn't be happening! It is happening. Now what? More facts, leading to the same conclusion?

[williamwbishop]

It really all comes down to one thing...Power. What would you do with it? If you could conquer the world, would you do it? Or would you be responsible enough to try and keep it to where the majority could work and live in relative safety? We would be solomon, and not alexander. Difference is, you're not dealing with a single child, you're dealing with a world. Do we deserve to be the maestro? No. But nobody else wants the job. Anyone else would hold the things they conquered, and we see how well it worked for the british empire, the roman empire, alexanders' reign, hitler....a hundred others. It appears to be overbearing, it even appears bloody, but all of americas insertions to date don't touch ghengis khan's or even stalins grasp for power. You think these days are bloody, then you are dead wrong. There was a time when 10000 people could be slaughtered in a morning, for simply having a different belief, and no one would care a wit.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by glaston
That's not what I'm after though! I'm looking for ANY responses. Just to get an idea of what everyone believes. I'm not looking to win anything here. As I stated, I'm just wondering on this. I'm not looking for answers that allow me an avenue to attack others on. That seems like something you'd do WB.
I'd be happy if all I had to do with this thread was read it, I don't necessarily HAVE to respond in any way.

You stated your stand on this WB. Your preference is that the US stop financial support to israel! So why do you insist on challenging anyones opinion that isn't the same as yours? If everyone shared your opinion, then this wouldn't even be an issue would it? So why do you think it necessary to make one post after another, raving about how stupid everyone is for not sharing your opinion?



I did not attack you for deriding israels stance politically. I attacked you because you claimed yourself anti-semitic. Having a hatred for a political ideology is one thing, I can understand that, but to hate a group of people is another. It is ignorance, and I detest it, be it political, religious, or racial.

[williamwbishop]

I apologize if I came on too strong, but I am tired, and not as gentle after a bad work night. Please forgive me.;)

[Elijah]

You're both tired :p

[glaston]

I attacked you because you claimed yourself anti-semitic. Maybe calling myself anti-seitic was a bit strong. I did it mainly in response to another guy being attacked for having an opinion that goes against the jewish establishment.
As I stated, I don't hate the Israelis as people. I hate their way of doing things, and their influence over things that effect everyone.
I think Israel is arrogant, but then again that might just be Sharon who's arrogant.
Since I don't deal with Israeli people on a daily basis, I'm one step removed from the whole thing. So when addressing a subject based on the Israelis, I tend to lump them together. This happens with all nations, and peoples though. It's hard to speak about people you don't know, from a place you've never been to, in a personal way.
My opinion comes from the amount of exposure, and the nature of that exposure to Israeli affairs.
My whole opinion on this could change in a heartbeat if I were to meet an Israeli that's a good person. I don't know any Israelis though.
I've seen a few really hot Israeli women.

[williamwbishop]

Originally posted by glaston
Maybe calling myself anti-seitic was a bit strong. I did it mainly in response to another guy being attacked for having an opinion that goes against the jewish establishment.
As I stated, I don't hate the Israelis as people. I hate their way of doing things, and their influence over things that effect everyone.
I think Israel is arrogant, but then again that might just be Sharon who's arrogant.
Since I don't deal with Israeli people on a daily basis, I'm one step removed from the whole thing. So when addressing a subject based on the Israelis, I tend to lump them together. This happens with all nations, and peoples though. It's hard to speak about people you don't know, from a place you've never been to, in a personal way.
My opinion comes from the amount of exposure, and the nature of that exposure to Israeli affairs.
My whole opinion on this could change in a heartbeat if I were to meet an Israeli that's a good person. I don't know any Israelis though.
I've seen a few really hot Israeli women.

Where do you live, I have several israeli friends, maybe they have some in your area. Of course I also have friends who are iranian, iraqui, pakistani, etc....No palestinian friends as of yet, but I assume them to be like all other peoples, generally good...with a few bad apples. Try not to lump peoples together into negative categories. I hate saddam, based on his actions against his own citizens, but I have met very few iraqui people that I did not like.