Battousai1
11-05-2002, 11:35 AM
whats the best desktop environment? KDE or GNOME? what would you prefer for a newbie user? KDE or GNOME?
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z0mbix
11-05-2002, 11:42 AM
What's better Debian or Slackware? Seriously, please don't ask this question as it's flamebait!
It's just personal preference!
It's just personal preference!
bskahan
11-05-2002, 11:52 AM
first off, I never, ever, run kde for more than a few hours at a time.
KDE is head and shoulders ahead of gnome as a desktop environment. Konqueror is a much better file manager than nautilus, and its a decent web browser (if they would fix gecko rendering I'd even use it). The centralized layout of KDE configs is much more rational (and newbie freindly) than gnome2. The AA fonts seems to work more consistently (and they work in kvim and konqueror).
That said, I use gnome. Why you ask.
gnome and gtk apps are better, gnumeric, evolution, gnucash, galeon, gaim, xchat, gnome-terminal, gqview, gimp, and I'm sure some others I can't think of, are all significantly better than their KDE counterparts (thought of another, pan kicks knodes ***).
I like my desktop to have a fairly unified feel, so I use a lesser environment to have it integrate with the better applications.
obviously this is my opinion. Unless you have really convincing arguments about features and/or usability don't waste your time rebutting my prefference for gtk apps listed above, I have tried the kde equivalents often and extensively.
KDE is head and shoulders ahead of gnome as a desktop environment. Konqueror is a much better file manager than nautilus, and its a decent web browser (if they would fix gecko rendering I'd even use it). The centralized layout of KDE configs is much more rational (and newbie freindly) than gnome2. The AA fonts seems to work more consistently (and they work in kvim and konqueror).
That said, I use gnome. Why you ask.
gnome and gtk apps are better, gnumeric, evolution, gnucash, galeon, gaim, xchat, gnome-terminal, gqview, gimp, and I'm sure some others I can't think of, are all significantly better than their KDE counterparts (thought of another, pan kicks knodes ***).
I like my desktop to have a fairly unified feel, so I use a lesser environment to have it integrate with the better applications.
obviously this is my opinion. Unless you have really convincing arguments about features and/or usability don't waste your time rebutting my prefference for gtk apps listed above, I have tried the kde equivalents often and extensively.
hubaloo
11-05-2002, 08:32 PM
Which has the most support from the most popular distros? Which has the most applications availab.e?
A lot of people say Gnome has better applications. In what ways are they better? Better features? Better performance?
Which has the better graphical environment? Which is easiest to use?
Which can run the other's apps better?
What are pros and cons of each?
What are the REAL DIFFERENCES (without being too technical)?? Why are there two? What was wrong with KDE that someone decided to make GNOME?
I want to basically choose one.... I dont like to switch back and forth, and I'd like to learn the differences as quickly as I can.
And hey... what kinds of issues need to be addressed to make either one as easy (or easier) to use as Windows?
A lot of people say Gnome has better applications. In what ways are they better? Better features? Better performance?
Which has the better graphical environment? Which is easiest to use?
Which can run the other's apps better?
What are pros and cons of each?
What are the REAL DIFFERENCES (without being too technical)?? Why are there two? What was wrong with KDE that someone decided to make GNOME?
I want to basically choose one.... I dont like to switch back and forth, and I'd like to learn the differences as quickly as I can.
And hey... what kinds of issues need to be addressed to make either one as easy (or easier) to use as Windows?
bskahan
11-05-2002, 08:59 PM
Which has the most support from the most popular distros? Which has the most applications availab.e?
more apps use the gtk toolkit (gnome), but the current incarnation, gnome2, is just getting going and there are approximately 10 apps that use it at the moment.
A lot of people say Gnome has better applications. In what ways are they better? Better features? Better performance?
This is basically a matter of preferance, I personally find gnome to be slightly more responsive, but that may be bias. I think that gnome apps are generally more mature, and have a cleaner UI, however, KDE apps have a more consistent UI (meaning they act more like each other). Gnome2 is trying to (and succeeding) catch up on that front. Aesthetically I prefer the gnome widgets, but themabilty makes this somewhat moot.
to take one app and break it down:
evolution provides an integrated mail client, address book, and calendar, very similar to MS outlook. KDE is just working on this level of an integrated PIM now.
Which has the better graphical environment?
KDE, its more consitent, more configurable, and its configuration scheme is more coherent.
Which is easiest to use?
too subjective, gnome2 may be simpler for a newbie because its less configurabel, but the difference would be slight, and the better layout of KDE may make this moot as well.
What are the REAL DIFFERENCES (without being too technical)??
KDE feels more like an integrated system, more like an environment and less like a collection.
KDE is written in C++, gnome is (primarily written in C. (this makes gnome better ;) )
Why are there two?
so that you have a choice, and because 2 > 1.
What was wrong with KDE that someone decided to make GNOME?
KDE is built on the QT widget library which used to have a non-free library, gnome is built on the GTK+ library and has always been GPL.
this is fixed now.
Which can run the other's apps better?
KDE uses a lot of shared memory its apps will start very slowly if you are not running the KDE desktop, gnome apps are slower in kde than in gnome but not significantly.
this is one of the reasons I don't use KDE apps, I can run gnome apps equally well from any WM, the same is not true of KDE
And hey... what kinds of issues need to be addressed to make either one as easy (or easier) to use as Windows?
as a desktop environment (meaning ignoring filetype and hardware compatibility) windows is no easier to use than eather one. The difference is that most of us have been training to use windows for the last 7 or so years. after you use gnome for 2 years you will find windows very unmanageable.
I want to basically choose one.... I dont like to switch back and forth, and I'd like to learn the differences as quickly as I can.
I can use up the rest of the 10,000 character message limit and get you 0% closer, the only way you will know is to use them.
what types of apps do you need?
this is the best way to decide, do you need a PIM?
try evolution and kmail
do you need a browser?
try galeon and konqueror.
do you need IRC?
try xchat and kirc
*****************
or don't give yourself the short stick, use a simple window manager (sawfish) and CLI programs like Mutt, irssi, vim, latex, etc. and enjoy really powerful computing.
more apps use the gtk toolkit (gnome), but the current incarnation, gnome2, is just getting going and there are approximately 10 apps that use it at the moment.
A lot of people say Gnome has better applications. In what ways are they better? Better features? Better performance?
This is basically a matter of preferance, I personally find gnome to be slightly more responsive, but that may be bias. I think that gnome apps are generally more mature, and have a cleaner UI, however, KDE apps have a more consistent UI (meaning they act more like each other). Gnome2 is trying to (and succeeding) catch up on that front. Aesthetically I prefer the gnome widgets, but themabilty makes this somewhat moot.
to take one app and break it down:
evolution provides an integrated mail client, address book, and calendar, very similar to MS outlook. KDE is just working on this level of an integrated PIM now.
Which has the better graphical environment?
KDE, its more consitent, more configurable, and its configuration scheme is more coherent.
Which is easiest to use?
too subjective, gnome2 may be simpler for a newbie because its less configurabel, but the difference would be slight, and the better layout of KDE may make this moot as well.
What are the REAL DIFFERENCES (without being too technical)??
KDE feels more like an integrated system, more like an environment and less like a collection.
KDE is written in C++, gnome is (primarily written in C. (this makes gnome better ;) )
Why are there two?
so that you have a choice, and because 2 > 1.
What was wrong with KDE that someone decided to make GNOME?
KDE is built on the QT widget library which used to have a non-free library, gnome is built on the GTK+ library and has always been GPL.
this is fixed now.
Which can run the other's apps better?
KDE uses a lot of shared memory its apps will start very slowly if you are not running the KDE desktop, gnome apps are slower in kde than in gnome but not significantly.
this is one of the reasons I don't use KDE apps, I can run gnome apps equally well from any WM, the same is not true of KDE
And hey... what kinds of issues need to be addressed to make either one as easy (or easier) to use as Windows?
as a desktop environment (meaning ignoring filetype and hardware compatibility) windows is no easier to use than eather one. The difference is that most of us have been training to use windows for the last 7 or so years. after you use gnome for 2 years you will find windows very unmanageable.
I want to basically choose one.... I dont like to switch back and forth, and I'd like to learn the differences as quickly as I can.
I can use up the rest of the 10,000 character message limit and get you 0% closer, the only way you will know is to use them.
what types of apps do you need?
this is the best way to decide, do you need a PIM?
try evolution and kmail
do you need a browser?
try galeon and konqueror.
do you need IRC?
try xchat and kirc
*****************
or don't give yourself the short stick, use a simple window manager (sawfish) and CLI programs like Mutt, irssi, vim, latex, etc. and enjoy really powerful computing.
carrja99
11-06-2002, 12:05 AM
Well, I tend to use alot of different Window Managers just for fun (I have just about every WORTHY window manager), but for some odd reason I stick with KDE. I dunno, I know people will say they like FLuxbox cause it's clean, simple, and efficient; but with alot of resources like my computer, it doesn't hurt to run alot of eye candy. However, fluxbox is IDEAL on my old 233mhz as it doesn't have enough memory for KDE or GNOME.
Enlightenment has also been very fun to mess around with too, and I have enjoyed it at great legnths... however I feel somewhat comfortable with KDE. I suppose this probably has to do with the fact that the first distro I ever used just used KDE and nothing else.
Enlightenment has also been very fun to mess around with too, and I have enjoyed it at great legnths... however I feel somewhat comfortable with KDE. I suppose this probably has to do with the fact that the first distro I ever used just used KDE and nothing else.
carrja99
11-06-2002, 12:09 AM
gnome and gtk apps are better, gnumeric, evolution, gnucash, galeon, gaim, xchat, gnome-terminal, gqview, gimp, and I'm sure some others I can't think of, are all significantly better than their KDE counterparts (thought of another, pan kicks knodes ***).
You do know that ALL of those apps do indeed run within KDE? believe me, I use gimp, gnome-term,Xchat, and Evolution almost religously! Using gnome has no affect on these programs ability and/performance whatsoever. But I guess for those with limited HD space may encounter problems over installing another WM when one WM includes the apps they want.
:D I'm still very far from filling up my 80 Gig HD! :D
You do know that ALL of those apps do indeed run within KDE? believe me, I use gimp, gnome-term,Xchat, and Evolution almost religously! Using gnome has no affect on these programs ability and/performance whatsoever. But I guess for those with limited HD space may encounter problems over installing another WM when one WM includes the apps they want.
:D I'm still very far from filling up my 80 Gig HD! :D
GaryJones32
11-06-2002, 01:51 AM
The QT library (kde) is just a little higher level than gtk so a little more overhead as the tradeoff for easier more elegant programming. But Opera is written with QT
and opera is a very fast browser so it may be best to say only bad QT hacking is slow.
But KDE desktop really does take up too much resources
I'm running a very old version and when it's going you got
kcontrol
kbgndwm
kaudioserver
ksound
kfm
krootwm
kpanel
kwm
I run it with just kfm and it goes better :)
and opera is a very fast browser so it may be best to say only bad QT hacking is slow.
But KDE desktop really does take up too much resources
I'm running a very old version and when it's going you got
kcontrol
kbgndwm
kaudioserver
ksound
kfm
krootwm
kpanel
kwm
I run it with just kfm and it goes better :)
hubaloo
11-06-2002, 03:49 AM
Muchas gracias, senor bskahan.
Very very helpful.
I think I will likely run KDE, and use those gnome apps that suit me.
Unfortunately, I don't think I will be rid of XP anytime soon.
It's the best windows version yet, but nowhere near as stable as it should be. However, I just have too many apps I rely on with it.
I know there's a lot of software available for linux that is supposed to do the same thing as those made for windows, but after looking at them, i'm really not impressed. I know I'm picky about the software i use, but overall, the linux apps seem less refined, lacking in features (as in features i would really use), and a less diverse assortment to choose from. (am i completely wrong?)
Very very helpful.
I think I will likely run KDE, and use those gnome apps that suit me.
Unfortunately, I don't think I will be rid of XP anytime soon.
It's the best windows version yet, but nowhere near as stable as it should be. However, I just have too many apps I rely on with it.
I know there's a lot of software available for linux that is supposed to do the same thing as those made for windows, but after looking at them, i'm really not impressed. I know I'm picky about the software i use, but overall, the linux apps seem less refined, lacking in features (as in features i would really use), and a less diverse assortment to choose from. (am i completely wrong?)
bskahan
11-06-2002, 05:00 AM
depends, in some cases thats true, particularly if you use specialized apps.
what do you use the computer for?
for most people I think there are mature linux applications to perform their everyday computing, and in many cases the linux apps have more features not less.
what do you use the computer for?
for most people I think there are mature linux applications to perform their everyday computing, and in many cases the linux apps have more features not less.
jglen490
11-06-2002, 09:29 AM
Note how the thread starter lit off a flame-war, then just stepped back and disappeared.
It's almost always a good thing to NOT reply to a "which xxxxx is best" question. Unless all competitiors in the "xxxxx" category, except one, are complete non-entities, then the only possible answer involves subjective reasoning and personal preference.
Since Linux involves heavy doses of personal choice (one of the freedoms in the "free as in beer"/"free as in speech" debate), then all you can do is make a choice and if it doesn't work, make another choice. But it's your choice, not someone elses that matters.
It's almost always a good thing to NOT reply to a "which xxxxx is best" question. Unless all competitiors in the "xxxxx" category, except one, are complete non-entities, then the only possible answer involves subjective reasoning and personal preference.
Since Linux involves heavy doses of personal choice (one of the freedoms in the "free as in beer"/"free as in speech" debate), then all you can do is make a choice and if it doesn't work, make another choice. But it's your choice, not someone elses that matters.
Clone5k
11-06-2002, 10:06 AM
Gnome is the best. End of discussion... :D
bskahan
11-06-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by carrja99
You do know that ALL of those apps do indeed run within KDE? believe me, I use gimp, gnome-term,Xchat, and Evolution almost religously! Using gnome has no affect on these programs ability and/performance whatsoever.
hubaloo take note.
gtk apps are just better ;)
You do know that ALL of those apps do indeed run within KDE? believe me, I use gimp, gnome-term,Xchat, and Evolution almost religously! Using gnome has no affect on these programs ability and/performance whatsoever.
hubaloo take note.
gtk apps are just better ;)
carrja99
11-06-2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Clone5k
Gnome is the best. End of discussion... :D
Gnome is for Gnomes!! People who use KDE or GNOME are lame because they can only use default install window managers and have no idea how to run truely powerful window managers such as fluxbox, openbox, wimaia, or Enlightenment.
(Although I still do use KDE alot... I like the neato window decorations and themes for it)
Gnome is the best. End of discussion... :D
Gnome is for Gnomes!! People who use KDE or GNOME are lame because they can only use default install window managers and have no idea how to run truely powerful window managers such as fluxbox, openbox, wimaia, or Enlightenment.
(Although I still do use KDE alot... I like the neato window decorations and themes for it)
rpcyan
11-06-2002, 10:56 AM
when i started with linux, i used kde. very easy, and you get an integrated feel, feeling a lot like windows, minus the crashing.
however, i found kde to be slow, so i gave gnome a try. on my system, it ran much faster, and i do like its apps.
so, i would say kde to start, but switch to gnome after a couple months. personal opinion, of course.
however, i found kde to be slow, so i gave gnome a try. on my system, it ran much faster, and i do like its apps.
so, i would say kde to start, but switch to gnome after a couple months. personal opinion, of course.
carrja99
11-06-2002, 12:27 PM
KDE runs just fine for me (but doesn't run to well on my dinosaur 233mhz w/ 32mb or RAM, neither does GNOME)! If you wanna ***** about KDE being slow, it's probably your crappy system. If you want to speed things up, switch to fluxbox...
End of Discussion.
End of Discussion.
rpcyan
11-06-2002, 05:10 PM
Uhm. I'm using a P4 1.5ghz system with 256rambus memory. Definately not the 233mhz dinosaur you refer to. I found that KDE would sometimes take up to 30 seconds to load a single program. Once the program was loaded, it was fine, but waiting so long with Konqueror or KMail to come up was quite annoying. Maybe it is my setup, perhaps something to do with my Radeon 7500, which is poorly compatible with linux, but things run great in gnome. I still feel that KDE is better for newbies and that most should eventually graduate to gnome. After awhile the K this and K that became more of a hassle than the use of gnome's apps.
hubaloo
11-06-2002, 09:17 PM
I do a lot.
I create music using loop-base software and midi software.
I edit home videos.
I edit and create graphics and photos (and use a lot of plug-ins).
I maintain web sites with Dreamweaver and a few other apps.
I do file-sharing.
I copy and burn CDs (using Nero and CloneCD 4).
I play a lot of 3D games.
What linux apps will do these, and are they as sophisticated as their windows counterparts?
I have several IEEE 1394 and USB devices that I am frequently connecting and disconnecting, because I don't have to reboot, and because XP has the drivers for these devices.
I create music using loop-base software and midi software.
I edit home videos.
I edit and create graphics and photos (and use a lot of plug-ins).
I maintain web sites with Dreamweaver and a few other apps.
I do file-sharing.
I copy and burn CDs (using Nero and CloneCD 4).
I play a lot of 3D games.
What linux apps will do these, and are they as sophisticated as their windows counterparts?
I have several IEEE 1394 and USB devices that I am frequently connecting and disconnecting, because I don't have to reboot, and because XP has the drivers for these devices.
carrja99
11-06-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by rpcyan
Uhm. I'm using a P4 1.5ghz system with 256rambus memory. Definately not the 233mhz dinosaur you refer to. I found that KDE would sometimes take up to 30 seconds to load a single program. Once the program was loaded, it was fine, but waiting so long with Konqueror or KMail to come up was quite annoying. Maybe it is my setup, perhaps something to do with my Radeon 7500, which is poorly compatible with linux, but things run great in gnome. I still feel that KDE is better for newbies and that most should eventually graduate to gnome. After awhile the K this and K that became more of a hassle than the use of gnome's apps.
Must be your setup, because any program I launch from within KDE on my 1.1Ghz w/ 512mb of RAM starts instantly... however I will state that when I installed Mandrake 9.0 on a new HD, KDE ran insanely slow... Yet I reinstalled and it worked fine.
Don't ask me. :confused:
Uhm. I'm using a P4 1.5ghz system with 256rambus memory. Definately not the 233mhz dinosaur you refer to. I found that KDE would sometimes take up to 30 seconds to load a single program. Once the program was loaded, it was fine, but waiting so long with Konqueror or KMail to come up was quite annoying. Maybe it is my setup, perhaps something to do with my Radeon 7500, which is poorly compatible with linux, but things run great in gnome. I still feel that KDE is better for newbies and that most should eventually graduate to gnome. After awhile the K this and K that became more of a hassle than the use of gnome's apps.
Must be your setup, because any program I launch from within KDE on my 1.1Ghz w/ 512mb of RAM starts instantly... however I will state that when I installed Mandrake 9.0 on a new HD, KDE ran insanely slow... Yet I reinstalled and it worked fine.
Don't ask me. :confused:
I'm A Penguin
11-06-2002, 09:35 PM
hubaloo,
Mac OS X
"I create music using loop-base software and midi software.
I edit home videos.
I edit and create graphics and photos (and use a lot of plug-ins)."
Honestly, I don't think anything can touch a Mac for audio and video work.
Windows XP
"I play a lot of 3D games."
Unfortunately, Windows still has the lead in gaming.
Part of the fun, for me anyway, it trying to do things on Linux that I normally use Windows to accomplish. When I get it all sorted out... good bye Windows :)
Mac OS X
"I create music using loop-base software and midi software.
I edit home videos.
I edit and create graphics and photos (and use a lot of plug-ins)."
Honestly, I don't think anything can touch a Mac for audio and video work.
Windows XP
"I play a lot of 3D games."
Unfortunately, Windows still has the lead in gaming.
Part of the fun, for me anyway, it trying to do things on Linux that I normally use Windows to accomplish. When I get it all sorted out... good bye Windows :)
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