Is a two-year degree Good enough?

[dunno]

My mother is concerned about me going to college and getting a two-year associates degree in computers. She is wondering if that degree would be 'good enough' and would businesses or whoever hire me.

[FoBoT]

after you get the 2 year, try to get a job
if you cant' then go back to school

if you get a job, go back to school at nights/weekends and get more school anyway

:)

http://www.primethepump.org/ug.gif

[ 28 March 2001: Message edited by: the unknown geek ]

[kmj]

If you get a two year degree, you generally have an easy time transfering to a school that will give you a bachelors; you'll be about halfway through the curriculum.

There are places that will hire someone with a 2 year degree or no degree in CS if you can prove that you can do the job.

Still, if you really are interested in Computer Science, get a four year degree. An associates doesn't do it justice at all.

Even better, get a masters. That's where the real fun starts!

[BrianDrozd]

Some places may hire you with a 2-year degree, but considering the state of dot coms at the moment, I'd recommend going for a bachelors anyway. The computer industry will likely be picking back up by then which will make it easier. Right now there's a lot of Computer Science people coming into the market from all the bombed dot coms.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

The alledged of a glut of engineers from the dot compost heap is a fallacy. In fact there are about 850,000 programmer "holes" right now. These "holes" are programming positions that companies cannot fill. When I moved from my last company to this company I didn't fill a hole, I just moved a hole from here to there.

So yes, there are a TON of jobs available right now, the dot com crash is not as bad as the media is making it sound.

Now, having said all that, companies are looking for people with B.S. degrees in C.S.* or I.T.* , not 2 year degrees. So yes, absolutly continue with your 4 year degree. You will never make a mistake in this business by making the decision to educate yourself more. And always remember that knowledge == $$

* C.S. = Computer Science.
* I.T. = Information Technology

[f'lar]

2 years is plenty if you get certified: A+, MSCE <shudders>, RHCE, Cisco, etc. 4 years is better, but not two years worth. When you go to a four year school you go for a whole lot more than just the degree.

[IMcool]

You get a whole lot more out of a four-year institution. Even the level of education on the first two years are better than than a two-year college. Trust me, I have been there.

[tnordloh]

Don't forget that there's a collateral effect to learning. 2 year degrees are a good starting point, but you need more math and cs theory if you want to really understand computers, unless you are the type of person capable of picking up a math textbook and reading it through.

I'm not being clear, let me try again.

All of this computer 'stuff' such as binary numbers, search trees such as internet naming conventions, semiconductor engineering etc, is based on the concepts that a four year computer science degree will give you. From what I have seen of 2-year degrees, they concentrate in making a person a good computer operator, and technically superior to the average user. The computer science degree concentrates on theory so that you have the background to understand any computing system, and the theories it is based on. It prepares you for software engineering as opposed to operating.

As far as money goes, there probably isn't a huge difference, at least in the beginning. In ten years, you may feel a little bit behind, but only if you stop. I think it's a good idea to get the degree, and get into the workforce for a few years. Find out what you like, take a few classes toward a bachelor degree, and after you have an idea of what area of computers interests you the most, pursue that.

[kmj]

Originally posted by f'lar:
2 years is plenty if you get certified: A+, MSCE <shudders>, RHCE, Cisco, etc. 4 years is better, but not two years worth. When you go to a four year school you go for a whole lot more than just the degree.


We'll I suppose it depends on where in the fields of "computers" he wants to be. The above are really IT certifications, not CS; correct?


You get a whole lot more out of a four-year institution. Even the level of education on the first two years are better than than a two-year college. Trust me, I have been there.

I'd say that depends on the schools in question.

[Fandelem]

atleast where i'm going to school, (a community college) their "two year degree" is called an "AS (Associates of Science) degree, which is terminal, meaning you cannot just walk over to a 4 year institute with it and they will let you in. It's called a "technical degree" I believe -- where basically they load you up on how to be a computer operator (a guy a few posts above me had a great analogy about being a software engineer over just a computer operator.. however i think that depends on how much the person wants to learn -- and a lot of it depends on if he wants to take the time to learn the stuff on his own (outside of his "technical degree") to be something equivilent to a software engineer.. i know i could learn those two extra CS years faster than two years.. college is so slow.)

anyways, maybe this is just specific to my community college. but the only way the people in admissions tell me i can transfer to a four year college is with an AA (associates of arts) degree, which basically is a bunch of BS liberal arts/history/language classes that i could care less about (i'm taking 7 courses of this right now heh). but i'm leaning towards getting a technical degree, and starting to work. because school just irritates me as far as progressing goes-- if only they went faster.. (this summer.. where summerA and summerB are only six weeks.. i plan on taking 24 credits total.. mwuahaha). oh well, i'll finish my AA degree so if i ever wanted to transfer to a four year college, i could, and would only need to do two more years (and wouldn't need to worry about english or history or etc). but i'm going to get a technical degree (AS), and start working. or atleast try to start working somewhere.

just my two cents ;o)

~kyle

[ph34r]

Here's a interesting tale of 2 geeks...

A friend and I started computers when we were both 10 and the TRS-80 was king.

He ended up going to MIT and getting a PhD in computer engineering. I screwed around and am still working on 3 AS degrees (need 2 classes for each to finish).

He decided not to work for Microsoft (at $200K/y) and is working for himself in the LA area doing consulting and running a few webservers for different corporations. Not rich, but happy.

I got a job working at the college I am attending, working with the distance education movements. I do some programming, some networking, some server management/testing, and teach workshops. Not rich, but the bills all get paid, a little goes in savings, and I'm happy.

Moral? Get the 2 year degree - you can always go back. While you do it, work on your certifications - they are worth $$$$. Cisco CCNA, Novell's CNA, and even the dreaded MCSE/MCSD/MCP path will all put many dollars in your pocket.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

I guess I got really lucky. I went to San Diego City College and Mesa College for my 2 year degree which was an A.S. in Applied Math. But for that degree I took a lot of actual math classes: intermediate Algebra, Trig, pre-calc, Calculus for Engineers (Math 150, 151, and 152), Discrete math, Linear Algebra, as well as some programming classes : Pascal, Data structures, Algorithms.

I also got all my general education and english requirements done for cheap units at a 2 year college so when I transfered over to San Diego State I went straight into the serious C.S. classes.

And even though it's the C.S. degree that got me my first jobs, it's always nice to have the words "Applied Mathematics" on your resume.

So I actually found that the quality of the education at the Jr. Colleges was better than at SDSU. But I know that's not everyone's experience. Still, my 2 year degree was a good experience for me.

[nanode]

If you can afford/tolerate to stay in school to get the B.S. - you'll eliminate any chance of a glass ceiling.

Set a long term goal. If you want to be a guru SR. developing earning 6 figs. within 5 years, almost any 4 year degree + skills + experience is better than a 2 yr. technical degree with the other stuff the same.

However, once you land the first BIG job, it's relatively easy to gain momentum. My first gig out of school (gave my 2 week's notice yesterday BTW) was a little lower paying than some entry level developer positions, but after 10 months of sticking it out, I've got a significantly better offer from another company. FYI: I majored in business and have at best mediocre math ability. :)

B.S. + hardwork = anything you want to do

[YaRness]

go to a four year school. B.S is worth far more than a 2 year degree, and there's more parties/beer/horny-people at four year colleges :D

[kmj]

Originally posted by Fandelem:
atleast where i'm going to school, (a community college) their "two year degree" is called an "AS (Associates of Science) degree, which is terminal, meaning you cannot just walk over to a 4 year institute with it and they will let you in. It's called a "technical degree" I believe -- where basically they load you up on how to be a computer operator (a guy a few posts above me had a great analogy about being a software engineer over just a computer operator.. however i think that depends on how much the person wants to learn -- and a lot of it depends on if he wants to take the time to learn the stuff on his own (outside of his "technical degree") to be something equivilent to a software engineer.. i know i could learn those two extra CS years faster than two years.. college is so slow.)

anyways, maybe this is just specific to my community college. but the only way the people in admissions tell me i can transfer to a four year college is with an AA (associates of arts) degree, which basically is a bunch of BS liberal arts/history/language classes that i could care less about (i'm taking 7 courses of this right now heh). but i'm leaning towards getting a technical degree, and starting to work. because school just irritates me as far as progressing goes-- if only they went faster.. (this summer.. where summerA and summerB are only six weeks.. i plan on taking 24 credits total.. mwuahaha). oh well, i'll finish my AA degree so if i ever wanted to transfer to a four year college, i could, and would only need to do two more years (and wouldn't need to worry about english or history or etc). but i'm going to get a technical degree (AS), and start working. or atleast try to start working somewhere.

just my two cents ;o)

~kyle

FWIW, I got an AS from a community college (SUNY) in CS, and I transfered to RIT. They accepted all of my credits; Granted, my AS wasn't completely technical, I did take non-CS classes: liberal arts, history, physics, math. I'm glad for this because all of these things are interesting to me, and learning only computer science would just be so boring after a while. I say stay in school for as long as possible, because the farther you go, the cooler sh!t gets.

[Fandelem]

yeah.. must be specific to my comm. college then. ah well hehe

[Tyr-7BE]

I'd recommend going to college for the 2 year degree and using the money you make from that to get certified. Once you're certified you can make a respectable salary and save up to take your bachelor's. After you're finished you're bachelors, not only will you have the degree, but you'll have all the certifications and experience under your belt!
Example: I was talking to a guy I don't know on the bus a while back (it sucks when they start talking to you, but every now and then you meet a cool person), and he told me about a guy he knows. This guy went to college for 4 years and it cost him an arm and a leg plus his sanity to get his degree. Well he had some trouble finding work, so the guy took an 8 month course at a community college. He got a job with the 8 month degree, and has been moving up in the world ever since. He's never touched his degree. Moral? You don't NEED a bachelor's to work in the industry. Yes, employers often prefer it, but if you can show yourself to be certified by a lot of companies and that you're genuinely interested in computers (make them your hobby as well as your livelihood), you're bound to get scooped up somewhere. Now I'm not saying that the two year thing is the better way to go..it was already previously mentioned that it brings in the "glass ceiling" effect, but it's certainly a perfectly good way. The guy I was talking to was working on his PhD, and his biggest concern was what sponsorship offer he'd accept. He was about to pay off ALL his bills from years of study, plus make a pretty penny. Man would that be nice.... Someday :)

[Fandelem]

on a side note to Tyr's story, I'm sure the bachelors degree aided in his first position =) the bachelor's is, at the very minimum, a significant piece of paper to the employer that ensures you can stick with something and complete it.. (probably more, and my analogy is horrible, but i'm braindead right now)..

[Ryeker]

I think it also depends where you live and how much experience you have. Where I live, there is a lot of businesses here who would take anyone who knows what they are doing. It's up to you to find where you want to go. Just as long as you can do the job (and prove it).

On another note, I have a friend who does nothing but temp/contract work for RHI Consulting (www.rhiconsulting.com). He's getting 'good' pay, but, he loves what he's doing because he sees so much stuff.

[Fandelem]

where do ya live, ryeker? ;o)

[Dru Lee Parsec]

But overall I must repeat a comment from my first post on this subject:

"You'll never make a mistake by educating yourself more. Especially in this business."

I'm the first person to admit that there's a LOT of total bull**** in college. I knew more than most of my CS prof's. And I certainly could have taught the classes better than most of them (At least english is my FIRST language). However, the difference in pay that you can expect over time from a 4 year degree vs. a 2 year degree is significant.

As trite as this comment has become I must advise: "Stay in school"

[kmj]

Dru, you seem to imply that money is the main reason to stay in college longer.

I guess maybe I'm different from most people in that I really enjoy learning, and that I've found college to be my best source of education. Especially alot more in the sense of the "why" more than "how"; and correllary<sp?> to Dru's post, there's an old saying that goes: "Those who know how work for those who know why." There's a funny joke, which may not be true, but here goes:

-The engineering major says "how does it work?"
-The science major says "why does it work?"
-The liberal arts major says "would you like fries with that?"

I love that joke; even though I was going to be a history major right up until I registered for classes my freshman year.

[ph34r]

Fandelem -

I have it on good authority that SFCC is going to be offering AAS degrees shortly - basically, most if not all of your classes would transfer to UF...

Come by my office and see me sometime... P-252, above the library :)

And, you shoulda come to the LAN party this weekend :D

[nanode]

You don't go to college to learn C++ or Java. You goto college to learn about yourself. I learned what I liked, disliked, was interested in and good at. How is that a waste of time?


That doesn't mean that spending more $$$ is directly proporational to the experience.

[AmiHughes]

My posting rights have been revoked because I tend to do irrational things.

[ 03 April 2001: Message edited by: Sensei ]

[Sensei]

I'm a proud owner of a 2 year degree. Gainesville ;)

Was about 2 semesters away from my BA in advertising when I dropped out.

[Radar]

I'm 11 technical credits from A.A.S.

I think I'm going to take Diffeq & Gen Phys. and Xfer to RPI. & forget the two year degree. I'd rather spend the time working towards the BS/MS rather than working to to finish the associates.

I can only handle two classes a semester while working a full time job. It's taking way too long.

I think I may be getting burned out or something. Time to take some time off.

[kmj]

A DiffEQ's. Them was the days. I took DiffEQ's, Discrete Math I, and Linear Algebra all in the same quarter. After that it was all I could do not to switch my major over to math.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

kmj:

If my experience of college was one of exploration and learning I would take classes every semester for the rest of my life. :)

Yes, I totally enjoy learning. I would love to take classes in art and music just for the fun of it. But I was responding primarily to the original poster's question of "Is a 4 year degree worth the time/trouble" in regards to the advancement of his future career.

But yeah, I'd love to go back to take some classes just for the joy of learning. I totally agree with you there.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

Radar wrote:
I can only handle two classes a semester while working a full time job. It's taking way too long.


Radar: I went to school at nights while working full time during the days. It took me 9 years to get my A.S. and B.S. because I too was limited to 2 classes a semester.

But it's worth it when you're trying to build your future. I remember telling my uncle "Damn! I'm going to be 35 by the time I graduate!" His response was "Yes, but you're going to be 35 anyway. Do you want to be 35 with a degree or without one?"

And yes, I went to work right out of high school and then saw the error of my ways and the value of a degree in my mid twenties.

So stick with it buddy. When it's over you'll be so glad that you did.

[kmj]

Originally posted by Dru Lee Parsec:
kmj:

If my experience of college was one of exploration and learning I would take classes every semester for the rest of my life. :)

Yes, I totally enjoy learning. I would love to take classes in art and music just for the fun of it. But I was responding primarily to the original poster's question of "Is a 4 year degree worth the time/trouble" in regards to the advancement of his future career.

But yeah, I'd love to go back to take some classes just for the joy of learning. I totally agree with you there.

Fair enough :) And you're initial quote was definitely right.

[dunno]

Okay, I'm still not sure about anything. I think I need to be a little more specific. The college, offers an 'associate in computer technology'. The little.. booklet thingy says, "Students are encouraged to obtain appropriate professional certifications." I see they offer a certificate for CISCO and some others.

I myself don't really care about money. I just want to get a job that I won't regret every day I goto work. I like programming, and I may be intrested in networking, but I've never done anything with that.

[tnordloh]

code to sum numbers between 1 and 50 pre-discrete math;

for(x=1;x<=50,x++)
{
sum=sum+x;
}


and post-discrete math

sum=((50+1)*50/2


That's a very small and simple example of the kinds of things taught in a 4-year computing degree, at least at my school. As you can see, the for loop executes 50 times, as opposed to one time for the summing formula.

They call that big omega, which is a way of saying 'the worst-case number of iterations of a program.' the first example has a big omega of n, where n is the last number minus the first number (51) and the second program has a big omega of 1.

Gotta love that...

I can't say much more than that, and I'd hate to be elitist toward the 2-year degree. When it comes down to it, it's your interest in computers that will determine your true potential in the computer industry.

The sysadmin where I work has a high school degree, and 20 years in the military. He makes a lot of money. What matters the most? The fact that the guy just plain loves his job and computers. He isn't insulated, and doesn't mind getting his hands dirty. Some of the people here have their little areas, such as backups or setting up id's. This guy does everything. The other day they replaced a router, which is strictly a lan/wan task but he was right in there.

[kmj]

Originally posted by dunno:
I myself don't really care about money. I just want to get a job that I won't regret every day I goto work. I like programming, and I may be intrested in networking, but I've never done anything with that.

In light of the new information... I still say stay in school. I may be wrong, but I think those certifications are for those who want to work with computers in the field of Information Technology, which is different from computer science. If want to be some kind of systems adminastrator or maintenance person, then that program would probably be fine. If you want to be a programmer, or you want to manage programming project, or do really cool stuff like research in genetic algorithms and build your own compilers, then stay in school. Don't get me wrong, there are alot of good programmers out there who don't have CS degrees, but college brings the information to you and makes sure you get it right. It's far more difficult to get into the "deeper issues" of computer science via methods other than academia.

To recap:
1)It seems like the program is more of an IT thing, which is a distant cousin of computer science.

2)You don't need to have a CS degree to be a good programmer, but it will take some extra effort on your part to get there.

3) CS Rocks hard-core, especially when you get higher up. Never know when you'll need to whip out a qsort or search a state-space.