programming environemt

[lazy_cod3R]

disclaimer ..

please understand from the start there is no flamming intended. what so ever :)


Im more into learning how to write programs then into the operating system that im writing the programs on and that is why i have done the 111 meg download on my little 33.6 kb modem and tried out, the c# language. C# is a lot more like java then c++, its totally object oriented and it is dam easy to learn, and i really cant belive the error messages as well, they are straight to the point, unlike c++ where the error message can at times be so nasty, expecially for someone new.
It was the first time i had ever seen this language but i was able to port my last c++ assignmet which took a while to do back then, (mainly because of hard to understand error messages and newbie pointer errors) into c# in about a day, it could have been quicker but reading docs does take a while.

I think if you arnt to worried about the os u are coding on but just like coding in general and like coding in java then this would probably be worth a try, the IDE they provide is also pretty nice to use. if it does become a mainstream dev tool for windows then it could probably make you some money also :) if you like you can think of it as a good way to get back at M$ for taking money away from consumers :D.

[Strike]

Just one question - why not just use Java? That's when you really "arnt to worried about the os u are coding on", because there are JVMs for tons of platforms. AFAIK, C# only has stuff working for Windows and always will.

[lazy_cod3R]

your right you could use java but there are just a few reasons.

One is that I have always wanted to be able to code something for windows that i can just give to people to try out without to many hassles, ie having to give them interpreters and so on because lets face it the AVERAGE joe/jane does use M$ windows for his/her os also alot of the win products have their own standards which can take some time getting used to whilst this is so straight forward.


Another thing which also worried me was that from going to seek.com.au and alot of those on-line job sites alot of jobs require M$ product knowledge , visual this or visual that and also I see alot more requirements for asp then php. I dont know enough about any to say which is better but i do know that C# can be used for asp and that asp has more on offer in the $$ department.

As for coding for fun, i'll try any language for any os, linux, windows anything thats new that someone recommends i'll give it a try.

With C# there isnt to much of a conversion also. If you have some decent java you can get into this quite quickly unlike some of the other M$ stuff thats why i think this C# is quite good

its an opinion tho, you might see it differently :)

[X_console]

I checked out some online C# tutorials when it first came out and I agree, it does look like a very easy language to learn. I wasn't aware that the C# compiler was free. Where did you download it?

And yeah, most average people do use Windows and it becomes hard when your programs are UNIX specific. Anything that can be ported requires installing an interpreter of some sort.

[nanode]

Since jemfinch hasn't commented (yet) - I'd have to say that Python is a great language when ease of use and portability are a concern. Again, you need an interpretter, but that's how it goes.

I installed jython last night (formerly JPython). That is one of the coolest things I've seen in a while. I can import java classes into my python code. It seems to be a great way to build test apps.

I looked at C# several months ago. The language doesn't seem bad - it's java with MS flavored syrup added. :)

The simple solution to the JVM issue, is for all modern OSes to include one.

PS: I have little interest in starting a GPL debate.

[Energon]

Wouldn't the biggest problem w/ C# be the fact that it's primarily grounded in the .NET architecture, which is inherently flawed in that the majority of people aren't going to pay a subscription to use their computer... so where will C# have a large user-base?

and there's also the point of C# vs Java vs VB... VB is easier for the windows guy to write fast and furious without too much care... and Java is easy for the broader based guy to pump out fast enough and have work, for the most part, anywhere that has a JVM... not to mention that both parties have been doing what they do for who knows how long and have a pretty good idea of what they're doing without having to learn something new... so why would they make the switch?

I guess I'm just lost as to what the point of having and learning C# is... it doesn't really provide an advantage because you can use either Java or VB and get the same basic effect, and the base that C# is coming from will, imho, never take off without an extreme loss of users... it's a good idea on paper, but can someone enlighten me as to how it becomes practical in reality?

[nanode]

Flexibility isn't always a good thing. C++ has the potential produce some great code. Trouble is, too many lazy people use it as liberal-C and not something brand new.

Java is strict and forces more OO design (IMHO). When I hear how a language can be all things to all people, I think of kludge.

Sure, VB has classes and objects - but if you can demostrate: polymorphism, abstraction and even inheritence, I'll be surprised.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

I have to agree with energon.

C# == "What's the point?" Is the only reason to use C# the fact that my user's don't have to download a Java Runtime Environment? To me, that seems to be a poor trade off with the fact that Java runs on any OS that has a JVM.

Scot Gosling made a comment at JavaOne a couple of years ago. "If you want to right code that will work 10 years, 50 years, even 100 years from now, your only choice is Java." Big words but here's where he's coming from: Since Java is OS and Hardware independent then regardless of whatever new hardware/OS come out in the future all that has to happen is for a Java Virtual Machine to be created for that new hardware and your code will work.

Is that true for either Microsoft Foundation Classes or C#? Certainly not.

As long as I've started my evangelical rant I might as well contine . . .

[the crowd starts to chant: "go! go! go!"]

I don't know about C# because I havn't really studied it. but I'd like to know how it performs task like client server communication. If it uses DCOM then that's a point against it right there (Remember COM and DCOM? 5 years ago Microsoft said it would revolutionize software. Where is it now?)

I followed the Java Tutorial on client server programming and Remote Method Invocation and had 2 computers talking to each other in Java in about an hour. That's got to say something about the efficientcy of a language.

I think people forget that Java is more than a language to write applets. It has excellent GUI integration with Swing, Excellent Client Server integration with RMI, You can even have Java talk to native C or C++ code via JNI (Java Native Interface). And with JINI you can have services between various hardware components talking to each other in a way that kicks CORBA's butt.

Is Java the solution to all coding problems? Of course not, no particular language is "the perfect language". I would never, for example, want to try to write a video driver in Java. But the benifits of Java certainly outweigh the "My users have to download a JVM to make it work" problem.

</RANT>

Well, I did it again. I turned a perfectly civil discussion into a Pro Java rant. It must be genetic. :)

disclaimer ..
please understand from the start there is no flamming intended. what so ever

Oh I understand, and I hope my rant didn't come across as a flame. I guess I'm just a little passionate about my work. ;)

[lazy_cod3R]

To X_console
its like a beta version i think. any this is where it is. http://download.microsoft.com/download/VisualStudioNET/Install/2204/NT5/EN-US/setup.exe
or the page is here
http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp?URL=/code/sample.asp?url=/msdn-files/027/000/976/msdncompositedoc.xml

TO dru lee parsec :
haha no problem dru no offence was taken at all.


C# == "What's the point?" Is the only reason to use C# the fact that my user's don't have to download a Java Runtime Environment? To me, that seems to be a poor trade off with the fact that Java runs on any OS that has a JVM.


Yeh thats one reason, but the other was related to jobs , i can already here it coming now about how there are alot of jobs which require java skills as well and i have no doubt at all there would be but <as to what i have seen so far> there are alot more for programmers starting out to have skills M$ stuff. If i lived in the us i could probably try my hand at applying for soom of them really cool jobs i saw at java.sun.com, im sorta just looking for the best work chance.

The other thing was C# can also be used for asp, its sorta like hitting 2 birds with the same stone. U can learn 2 different trades by learning the one language, you could probably say the same about vb but since i learned to code under a unix environment VB doesn't look like any language which i have tried whist C# does.