Bad news for iceWM people: Development of iceWM dead.

[demian]

Just found out that iceWM isn't in active development since last October. On the debian development list there's a call for a new maintainer of iceWM. (Not a package maintainer but an upstream maintainer). Now I'm not an iceWM user but seeing that this WM seems rather popular it's really a shame to see it go down :(

Linkage (http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2002/debian-devel-200203/msg01816.html)

[z0mbix]

Oh dear Ludo, boo hoo! :p

Actually, after reading through that debian thread, it sound's like IceWM is a piece of badly written crap. Not that I could do any better as I can just about create a simple bash script!

[ 28 March 2002: Message edited by: cheeky_zombie ]

[RTFM]

:cool: KDE :cool:

[demian]

I don't think people running iceWM would consider KDE as a viable alternative. Anyway, I didn't include a reference to another WM in my original post because I didn't want it to sound like schadenfreude (<- is that _really_ an English word? I wonder how you guys pronouce that :D) but FVWM can do everything iceWM does and a lot more. It's equally lightweight and fast and it has a very active development :p.

And Ludo: check the mail account you have in your profile. I send you the config files.

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by cheeky_zombie:
<STRONG>Oh dear Ludo, boo hoo! :p</STRONG>
This is NOT funny at all. :mad: BUT I've found a solution. Like you say it, you can only write bash shell script, so now, this is what you're going to do:
- learn C++ (in which IceWM is written)
- become the new maintainer of IceWM

I haven't read the linkage yet, but doubt it's true (no offense meant at all demian). I reccently read an announcement about 1.02 or something like that. IIRC, they (read: tbf & matthias) are completely re-writing icewm for the next generation, 1.x. Someone on their channel told me that they where re-writing it in modules, so now for example I can't load their wonderful taskbar in any other wm, because it's one big part, while in the next generation this would be possible, since everything would be in modules.
Anyway, I'm off to read that link. Thanks for sharing demian.
/me just hopes it isn't true


Originally posted by cheeky_zombie:
<STRONG>Actually, after reading through that debian thread, it sound's like IceWM is a piece of badly written crap.</STRONG>
Who cares :)
The point is that it's a nice wm, I don't care about it that it's badly written, that's a problem for the developpers.

And even if the IceWM project completely stopped, that wouldn't matter a lot for the first couple of years, since it's already great like it is now. After a few years it would probably be total crap compared to other wm's which would continue to evoluate, but yeah... then I'll just have to move to another wm/de. The best thing about IceWM is probably that you don't need a mouse at all, which has been great help to me when I had problems with my XF86Config-4.
Just all go install IceWM and load some apps using the menu (which you open with the key where there's that windows logo for most people).
Than, type alt+tab.
Than, type ctrl+alt+key on which there's a "&lt;-" or ctrl+alt+key on which there's a "-&gt;"
Than, type ctrl+alt+del.
These are just a few examples of what you can do with Ice. Afaik, no wm/de has this.

Try to use fb/bb without a mouse cheeky_zombie :rolleyes:

[ 28 March 2002: Message edited by: Ludootje ]

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by demian:
<STRONG>but FVWM can do everything iceWM does and a lot more. :p.</STRONG>
How about keybindings? How about that wonderful taskbar? Use icewm before giving comments :p

And Ludo: check the mail account you have in your profile. I send you the config files.
W0000000000t! Thanks so much! Now if only that damn evolution worked I could reply. Bah they really should make a decent mailclient for linux soon.

[Jomboni]

Blackbox hadn't been developed for like a year, and people were raving about it even up to and after fluxbox's release. I don't use IceWM but if I did I wouldn't be too sad :)

[z0mbix]

Originally posted by Ludootje:
<STRONG>This is NOT funny at all. :mad: BUT I've found a solution. Like you say it, you can only write bash shell script, so now, this is what you're going to do:
- learn C++ (in which IceWM is written)
- become the new maintainer of IceWM</STRONG>

heh - no thks, I'd rather have my testicles chewed off by a rather large and aggresive dog that hasn't been fed in a week ;)

<STRONG>I haven't read the linkage yet, but doubt it's true (no offense meant at all demian). I reccently read an announcement about 1.02 or something like that. IIRC, they (read: tbf & matthias) are completely re-writing icewm for the next generation, 1.x. Someone on their channel told me that they where re-writing it in modules, so now for example I can't load their wonderful taskbar in any other wm, because it's one big part, while in the next generation this would be possible, since everything would be in modules.
Anyway, I'm off to read that link. Thanks for sharing demian.
/me just hopes it isn't true</STRONG>

doesn't look good does it?

<STRONG>Who cares :)
The point is that it's a nice wm, I don't care about it that it's badly written, that's a problem for the developpers.</STRONG>

That's a bit short sighted! Just the developers? Nothing to do with the users? If people aren't able to maintain/take over the code then the wm will die? And I'm sure badly written code could affect stability too.

<STRONG>And even if the IceWM project completely stopped, that wouldn't matter a lot for the first couple of years, since it's already great like it is now. After a few years it would probably be total crap compared to other wm's which would continue to evoluate, but yeah... then I'll just have to move to another wm/de. The best thing about IceWM is probably that you don't need a mouse at all, which has been great help to me when I had problems with my XF86Config-4.
Just all go install IceWM and load some apps using the menu (which you open with the key where there's that windows logo for most people).</STRONG>

/me doesn't have windows keys on his keyboard... :rolleyes:

<STRONG>Than, type alt+tab.
Than, type ctrl+alt+key on which there's a "&lt;-" or ctrl+alt+key on which there's a "-&gt;"
Than, type ctrl+alt+del.
These are just a few examples of what you can do with Ice. Afaik, no wm/de has this.</STRONG>

yes fb and bb do, and I'm sure many others too.

<STRONG>Try to use fb/bb without a mouse cheeky_zombie :rolleyes:</STRONG>

I can! :cool: keybindings :cool:

[ 28 March 2002: Message edited by: cheeky_zombie ]

[demian]

Originally posted by Ludootje:
<STRONG>How about keybindings? How about that wonderful taskbar? Use icewm before giving comments</STRONG>
Keybinding??? Is there any windowmanager that doesn't support keybindings? FVWM has a taskbar module. I never useed it but I'm sure you can mimic the look and feel of iceWM's task bar with that. FYI I did use iceWM for a while. Didn't like it very much. Mostly because I can't stand taskbars :p

[demian]

UPDATE: On LJR cga posted the the same news. Here's what he said:
Originally posted by cga on LJR (http://www.linuxjunior.org/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=xwindows&action=display&num=1017323528)
<STRONG> I contacted Markus Ackermann (The man for IceWM) and he told me the following;

"the rewrite" a.k.a. icewm-1.1, by Marko Macek, is dead IMHO. The current version (icewm-1.0) might enter a bugfixing period led by gallium (Karol Szwed) and two_face, at least that's what they promised some weeks ago. Seems like two_face (Jerome Marant, the Debian Maintainer) is frustrated now because gallium didn't work on it at all.

Basically, as of now IceWM is an orphan project. We may see some bug fixes, but unless some one picks it up, we will not see a new version.

IceWM is a solid performer and the current version is quite usable; however, I think it could have become even better. There are a few bugs in the code that I would have liked to see fixed. Now, who knows if that will happen.

I am unhappy about this. Maybe I'll switch to WindowMaker. I just don't know.</STRONG>

Doesn't look too good.

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by demian:
<STRONG>Keybinding??? Is there any windowmanager that doesn't support keybindings?</STRONG>
I once tried E&KDE when I had mouse problems. I couldn't find any keybinding, and therefore couldn't even load an app.

FVWM has a taskbar module.
Oh didn't knew that :o
FYI I did use iceWM for a while.
Whoops sorry ;)
Didn't like it very much. Mostly because I can't stand taskbars :p
You can disable the taskbar ;)

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by demian:
<STRONG> Doesn't look too good.</STRONG>
Nope I agree.
What I don't understand though, is why Markus doesn't fix those bugs himself if he'd like them to be fixed. Also, I just can't understand that the creator of IceWM thinks about using windowmaker. This is kinda weird, I mean, why did he made it then? He doesn't like his creation or something like that? Weird.

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by cheeky_zombie:
<STRONG>heh - no thks, I'd rather have my testicles chewed off by a rather large and aggresive dog that hasn't been fed in a week ;)
</STRONG>
I always thought there was something wrong with those UK'ers ;) :p


That's a bit short sighted! Just the developers? Nothing to do with the users? If people aren't able to maintain/take over the code then the wm will die?
Ok, I agree, undirectly it does affect the user.


And I'm sure badly written code could affect stability too.
Well, there's a difference between badly written code and unclear code, of course.

/me doesn't have windows keys on his keyboard... :rolleyes:
Wanna bet? I'm 99% sure that between your alt & control key, you have a windows logo, with which you can access the menu.

[scanez]

Originally posted by Ludootje:
<STRONG>I once tried E&KDE when I had mouse problems. I couldn't find any keybinding, and therefore couldn't even load an app. </STRONG>
For E- e16keyedit. ctrl-alt-insert will give you a terminal you can use to run apps until you get your mouse fixed if you wish ;)

:cool: Enlightenment :cool:

[ 28 March 2002: Message edited by: scanez ]

[demian]

Originally posted by Ludootje:
<STRONG>What I don't understand though, is why Markus doesn't fix those bugs himself if he'd like them to be fixed. Also, I just can't understand that the creator of IceWM thinks about using windowmaker. This is kinda weird, I mean, why did he made it then? He doesn't like his creation or something like that? Weird.</STRONG>
Err, only the part in italics is what Markus had to say. The rest is written by cga.

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by scanez:
<STRONG> :cool: Enlightenment :cool:</STRONG>
Now if only it had a taskbar :rolleyes:
Well, I might use it for a week or so with kicker, who knows...

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by demian:
<STRONG>Err, only the part in italics is what Markus had to say. The rest is written by cga.</STRONG>


Aaaah ok now I understand ;)
I didn't saw the italic part stopped :o

[scanez]

Originally posted by Ludootje:
<STRONG>Now if only it had a taskbar :rolleyes:
Well, I might use it for a week or so with kicker, who knows...</STRONG>
:mad: taskbars :mad:

Hehe, and yes, just run some other sort such as kicker or panel if you really need one.

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by scanez:
<STRONG>Originally posted by Ludootje:
Now if only it had a taskbar :rolleyes:
Well, I might use it for a week or so with kicker, who knows...</STRONG>
:mad: taskbars :mad:

Hehe, and yes, just run some other sort such as kicker or panel if you really need one.
:mad:mathlovers :mad:
:p
Nah, panel isn't nice, kicker is though, and the icewm taskbar is simply wonderful.
Just wondering, why don't most people like a taskbar? I think it's pretty handy for fastly starting stuff. Also, everyone who gives as reason "it reminds me to windows" is totally pathatic.

[Mnemonic]

Originally posted by demian:
<STRONG>I don't think people running iceWM would consider KDE as a viable alternative. Anyway, I didn't include a reference to another WM in my original post because I didn't want it to sound like schadenfreude (&lt;- is that _really_ an English word? I wonder how you guys pronouce that :D) but FVWM can do everything iceWM does and a lot more. It's equally lightweight and fast and it has a very active development :p.

And Ludo: check the mail account you have in your profile. I send you the config files.</STRONG>

I download the source for the latest stable version of FVWM the other night. It compiled without a hitch and was up and running in no time. However, I am not certain how configuration, themes, and such are handled. I did not have the opportunity to spend a great deal of time with it. Subsequently, I ask..."can you point me in the direction of some quality documentation and tips for FVWM?" Thanks.

-M

P.S. I did notice that FVWM takes a little less than 4 time the memory required by IceWM. That is IceWM without the bloat, otherwise the difference is only double the memory requirements of IceWM. :D

[demian]

Originally posted by Mnemonic:
<STRONG>I did not have the opportunity to spend a great deal of time with it. Subsequently, I ask..."can you point me in the direction of some quality documentation and tips for FVWM?" Thanks.</STRONG>

Yeah, there are two things I'm missing in FVWM: A decent default configuration file and support for png icons.
Well, www.fvwm.org (http://www.fvwm.org) has links to sites providing config files and documentation. Specifically have a look at the fvwm-themes homepage (http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/). To come up with my setup all I read was the manpages for fvwm and fvwmbuttons. I think they are pretty good.
If you want to take a peek at the config files for this screenie (http://www.nord-com.net/goedeke/images/shot020324.png) drop me a mail and I'll send them to you.

Originally posted by Mnemonic:
<STRONG>I did notice that FVWM takes a little less than 4 time the memory required by IceWM. That is IceWM without the bloat, otherwise the difference is only double the memory requirements of IceWM. :D</STRONG>
Dunno. For my configuration fvwm take a little more than 1MB. I guess that's reasonable for a machine with 384MB RAM

[scanez]

Originally posted by Ludootje:
<STRONG>
:mad:mathlovers :mad:
:p
Nah, panel isn't nice, kicker is though, and the icewm taskbar is simply wonderful.
Just wondering, why don't most people like a taskbar? I think it's pretty handy for fastly starting stuff. Also, everyone who gives as reason "it reminds me to windows" is totally pathatic.</STRONG>
:mad: dissing mathlovers :mad:

Hehe, I have nothing against taskbars really, I just personally prefer to start apps through my trusty ol' Eterm :)

[Strike]

Originally posted by Ludootje:
<STRONG>Just wondering, why don't most people like a taskbar? I think it's pretty handy for fastly starting stuff.</STRONG>
Just use the E menu system. Or if you want to be able to launch an app even faster, make a keybinding for it.

[jglen490]

Uh, has any one actually gone to the IceWM (http://www.icewm.org/) site??

[Shyly raises hand] Well, yes, I did. And guess what, it's still there, albeit there are changes to the development team, but it's all there still. I just downloaded a bunch of stuff from the current stable release. I don't like unstable stuff, so I'll wait until the next release gets stable.

But yes, sir, I did -- and it's still there ;) !!

[littleman]

ICE is a fantastic WM. It is solid, fast, and functional. I used it for about six months without a crash. Resource wise it is just slightly heavier than blackbox. It is perfect for folks who like the M$/Gnome/KDE style taskbar but without the bloat. It could even look cool with some of the new themes. I'm a Fluxbox user, but ICE is a damn good window manager. It is what I would be using if BB/FB had never been written.

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by jglen490:
<STRONG>Uh, has any one actually gone to the IceWM (http://www.icewm.org/) site??

[Shyly raises hand] Well, yes, I did. And guess what, it's still there, albeit there are changes to the development team, but it's all there still. I just downloaded a bunch of stuff from the current stable release. I don't like unstable stuff, so I'll wait until the next release gets stable.

But yes, sir, I did -- and it's still there ;) !!</STRONG>
Who said it was gone? Of course it's still there!

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by littleman:
<STRONG>It is perfect for folks who like the M$/Gnome/KDE style taskbar but without the bloat.</STRONG>
It's perfect too for people who don't like it, since you can disable it/configure it a lot

[jglen490]

Who said it was gone? Of course it's still there!

No offense, Ludootje, but until I put my two cents in, no one in this thread had mentioned the site and no one had mentioned going to see if any recent info was at the site. It just seems important to understand what is happening to IceWM that one would want to see what IceWM had to say on the subject.

I love IceWM, but it's not my only choice. I will come up in Ice, or XFCE, or KDE -- it just depends on the "look" I'm after.

Have a good day!!

[demian]

Originally posted by jglen490:
<STRONG>Uh, has any one actually gone to the IceWM (http://www.icewm.org/) site??

[Shyly raises hand] Well, yes, I did. And guess what, it's still there, albeit there are changes to the development team, but it's all there still.</STRONG>

And when visiting the site you didn't notice that Markus Ackermann is the guy running that site? Use this fact combined with the above quote from Markus and make up your mind on what's happening.

[z0mbix]

Originally posted by Ludootje:
<STRONG>Wanna bet? I'm 99% sure that between your alt & control key, you have a windows logo, with which you can access the menu.</STRONG>

Yes I'll bet you everything you have :) :

http://www.jamsession.co.uk/test/zombiekbd.jpg

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by cheeky_zombie:
<STRONG>Yes I'll bet you everything you have :)</STRONG>
Damn UK-ers :p
Well, I have a windows logo there :o
I know there are keyboards which have the head of tux instead of the windows logo, and when I saw you posted a pic of a keyboard too, I thought you had one like that too.
Didn't knew there where keyboards without such a keys :)

[ 30 March 2002: Message edited by: Ludootje ]

[demian]

Originally posted by Ludootje:
<STRONG>Didn't knew there where keyboards without such a keys :)</STRONG>
:eek: How old are you?!?! I still consider keyboards without windows keys to be the norm (although it's getting harder to find them these days)

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by demian:
<STRONG> :eek: How old are you?!?! I still consider keyboards without windows keys to be the norm (although it's getting harder to find them these days)</STRONG>
I'm 16 and I've only gotten into computers a few years ago, I never saw a keyboard without that logo, sorry.

[ 30 March 2002: Message edited by: Ludootje ]

[demian]

Originally posted by Ludootje:
<STRONG>I'm 16 and I've only gotten into computers a few years ago, I never saw a keyboard without that logo, sorry.</STRONG>

No need to feel sorry ;)

I'm not making fun of you but I'm seriously amazed that you've never seen a keyboard without them windows keys. I didn't know it's already come that far ...

[jglen490]

... make up your mind on what's happening.

I went there, I saw that, and I did make up my mind. IceWM works, it's does what I want, and unless the site maintainer is a liar, there still is some work being done on Ice. A new team, yes, it's been awhile since the last stable release, yes. So how do you figure that Ice is dead? And please give rational answers, or not, as you choose -- but without the attitude. Thanks.

[Ludootje]

Like I said at first: not true :p

From icewm.org & #icewm on OPN:



IceWM News

14.April 2002, IceWM NOT Unmaintained
Despite other rumours on Slashdot and the Debian Mailing Lists: IceWM
is not unmaintained. Karol Szwed is still working on it, and IceWM's
founder Marko Macek has told me that he's working on the stable version
again. So while IceWM could really need an experienced coder with some spare
time it's not at all left unmaintained.
There will be a beta release of the upcoming 1.2.0 version still in april.
Please review and try to reproduce the currently known bugs so we know what to fix.