Gender Gap

[tnordloh]

In my own informal count, there are 2 females in my programming II class, 3 females in my Cobol class and a 0 females in Calculus 2. I can see a slight discrepancy there. In Calculus, I understand; Girls are too smart to torture themselves with that nonsense.

[zGoRNz]

in my programming class (it's year one starting c++ highschool i'm far ahead of the class but didn't want to take it over the summer to be in year ][) there are like 3 or 4 girls, there are 2 computer clubs, one is offical the other is cause we got in trouble last year for doing things along the line of hacking, but nothing harmfull, they couldn't get us in trouble, they wanted us to continue learning, gave us a small lab with 486s and let us do what we wanted there, anyway the offical one has no girls, the unoffical one has 1 and she is thinking about quiting


i'll go to local 2600 meetings, rarely are there ever girls and if they are they don't care about computers, but their boy friend wanted them to come.

- out -

------------------
Dunt Dunt Duh...
GoRN To The Rescue,
Yet Again
zGoRNz@yahoo.com
aim: GoRNToTheRescue

[Craig McPherson]

In high school... there were two cute girls in my Calculus class... I didn't pay much attention to the Calculus... in my first year of college, there was one cute girl in my Calculus class... she knew one of the cute girls from my high school... but not one of the ones who was in my Calculus class... that's all there is to say about that... have a nice day...

[dotzourb]

This is nothing new. Everyone knows that the number of women involved in anything related to computers is declining. As far as math, that is probably less telling, my college had twice as many female math majors as male. We had several discussions over the last two years that I was at school about what could be done about the dwindling number of women involved in our CS program. At this point in time, it's time for computer guys to stop pointing out the problem and start coming up with some solutions.

[Sterling]

I've actually noticed the opposite. There are a number of girls in the CS, math, and physics programs at the University I'm attending. But they aren't as fanatical about the topics as the guys, and there aren't very many. Its really a shame, as I know a lot of girls who would do really well in CS or math. Most have been convinced by parents or teachers that they won't be able to handle it or won't like it.

Of course, the attitude of some of the guys in previously mentioned fields doesn't help.


------------------
-Sterling
"There is no Linuxnewbie.org cabal..."

[TaeShadow]

At my school, it is true that there aren't many female CS majors. Even more interesting, however, is the number of American CS majors. No one here speaks English!

[Beowulf_Ghost]

I noticed alot of woman in the entry level CIS classes. But the rate of attrition was sky high. By the time you got to the 3rd class (programming fundamentals) it was like 1 woman to every 20 men.

In a 100 level CS Unix class, it was even worse (1 out of 35).

My girlfriend is taking Word and Excel classes, and she says it's mostly women in there.

Another thing I noticed, after class, women won't stay around and "talk shop". They show up to class, take notes, ask some questions, etc. But even in programming classes, most of them could tell you the internals of their home computers.

But in my AS/400 class of 8 people, we have three women.

The women folk seem more interested in using apps, then in writing code.

[Sterling]

Yeah... Although its dangerous, as usual, to make that generalization. I know a couple of women who are really good coders, including one (a friend of my mom's, actually) who's been in the business for longer than I've been alive.

[linuxgrrl]

If you read a lot of the threads here, especially the non-Linux related ones, you might get an idea of why there is such attrition among women. There may be good reasons why women choose not to stay after class to discuss issues and problems with others.

[ 11 February 2001: Message edited by: linuxgrrl ]

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by linuxgrrl:
If you read a lot of the threads here, especially the non-Linux related ones, you might get an idea of why there is such attrition among women.

you mean too many men/people here are jerks/nasty?


:(

[Beowulfs_Ghost]

Originally posted by linuxgrrl:
If you read a lot of the threads here, especially the non-Linux related ones, you might get an idea of why there is such attrition among women. There may be good reasons why women choose not to stay after class to discuss issues and problems with others.

[ 11 February 2001: Message edited by: linuxgrrl ]

Point taken. There do same to be alot of rude, over bearing, horny, teenage boys frequenting this site (and others).

[Tyr-7BE]

First year comp eng class: 250 people. Number of women: 12.
It's strange because in high school calculus and math and physics, it was a dead 50-50 split. It seems that a lot of women go into science.

[Tyr-7BE]

Originally posted by linuxgrrl:
If you read a lot of the threads here, especially the non-Linux related ones, you might get an idea of why there is such attrition among women. There may be good reasons why women choose not to stay after class to discuss issues and problems with others.

It's a shame, that. A lot of the people on this site are probably a) Hardcore geeks who have never seen a woman in real life. b) A fat man in nothing but a pink tutu dreaming up erotic fantasies to have with the women online such as linuxgrrl, with possibly a variety of farm animal to boot. (Not that anyone reading this post is either of the above ;)). Women have just as much right to study computers as men do, and I think that this "boy's only" club idea is preventing a lot of women from persuing the idea. Personally, I think it's a great thing to see a 4B woman in comp. eng. She's stood up against all odds and succeeded, and I say good for her. I'd like to see a more equal representation in the field.

[linuxgrrl]

Most here are helpful, but there are enough who make rude comments about women and begin demeaning threads. Some females just prefer to avoid the whole business ... even if it means giving up the help and comradery. That's why there is linuxchix.org (http://www.linuxchix.org). Still, the number of interesting and clever people here does outweigh the other.

[ 12 February 2001: Message edited by: linuxgrrl ]

[Cobol_Stephy]

I haven't recieved much trouble from the guys on this board. Probably because the 'Cobol' in my screen name scares them away.

The thing about the lack of women in the computer field is that it is a self fulfilling prophacy. Women don't want to get into it, because they see it as a "boys club". If women keep treating it as a boys only area, then other women may avoid it too. And round and round it goes.

[linuxgrrl]

I wasn't talking about receiving trouble on the boards so much as seeing threads in some of the forums where men and boys talk rudely about females, as if women were nothing more than sex objects or toys. It is a boys club, but it takes both males and females to rectify the problem, not only the perseverence of the strongest females. I teach computer classes to gifted and talented students in the summers and on some weekends. I tried to organize a class for girls, but because the district had been sued by a parent (of a boy) for having girls math classes, they could not offer any girls computer class of any kind. Even the smallest challenges to the existing system, "the status quo," indeed even something so innocuous as a computer hardware class for girls, meet reactionary resistance. I don't see much hope for change, but I do actively continue to try to open doors for the girls with whom I work.

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by linuxgrrl:
I tried to organize a class for girls, but because the district had been sued by a parent (of a boy) for having girls math classes, they could not offer any girls computer class of any kind. Even the smallest challenges to the existing system, "the status quo," indeed even something so innocuous as a computer hardware class for girls, meet reactionary resistance.

i am sorry, but i don't see how a "seperation" of genders helps.

i have two daughters, 7 and 2. i teach them all i can about computers. they each have their own pc and i try to show them what i am doing when i tear them apart, change out memory, hard drives, etc. i am starting to teach my 7 year old how to use the internet to do research for school. her teacher yesterday sent her home with a homework assignment, "who is on the one dollar bill". i showed her how to do a google.com search to find web sites about the one dollar bill and she printed out several pages of stuff to take to school.

i wouldn't like her being in a girl only club or girl only class. that isn't "real world". there are no companies that she can go work at that are "girls only", when she grows up, she will work in a heterogenous environment, men and women together.

i am sorry but i don't get it

i think parents have alot more to do with girls growing up in certain "roles" than anything else

[Cobol_Stephy]

I have to agree with FoBoT. Sergregated, girls only, computer classes only perpetuate the idea that women can't get into the "boys club" of the computer world.

[trauma]

hey what's up about damning girlz on computerz???!!!

i say they're a nice addition to anything with solely men in them.

problem with the turdz that live inside their comp is that they lack amenable social skillz.

do girlz threaten you dudez?

another thing: they smell and look nicer than your average home-grown teenage dude hacker.


:confused:

[ 13 February 2001: Message edited by: trauma ]

[Tyr-7BE]

Originally posted by trauma:
hey what's up about damning girlz on computerz???!!!


i say they're a nice addition to anything with solely men in them.


problem with the turdz that live inside their comp is that they lack amenable social skillz.


do girlz threaten you dudez?


another thing: they smell and look nicer than your average home-grown teenage dude hacker.

:confused:


[ 13 February 2001: Message edited by: trauma ]

Ummm..no...we're saying that there should be more women in computers. Totally the opposite.
And I believe that in most cases, it's the average home-grown teenage script-kiddie ;)

[linuxgrrl]

Simple solution: make them feel welcome, and do not speak about them as if they were objects of play. Do not ever, ever use the word B*tch. You personally may not have done this, but there have been plenty on this forum who have engaged in really demeaning conversations towards females. If you want the girls around, make it DESIRABLE for them to stay. Only the extremely driven, the stupid, and the masochists stay where it feels bad. What could be more obvious?

[ 14 February 2001: Message edited by: linuxgrrl ]

[Sterling]

Personally, I try to treat everyone politely. And I assume that people in CS can code at least as well as I can until they demonstrate otherwise. I try hard not to discriminate based on race or gender - especially in CS, which is currently predominantly white males.

[hswoolve]

I was going to check the male/female ratio in my data base concepts class (oracle on win95, sorry everyone), but forgot.

I do know that the team I am on has 3 women and one man on it, but the other two teams in the class are mostly male, call it 40% female (about 10-12 people in the class). :confused:

On a semi unrelated note:
One of the women on my team, whose major is Information Systems, has ... annoyed me. Her work to date has been a case of cutting and pasting the work of other team members. I'm not sure she's even opened the book. :mad: This in a class where the team is getting graded as a whole. Sheesh.

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by hswoolve:
Her work to date has been a case of cutting and pasting the work of other team members. I'm not sure she's even opened the book.

that is not likely related to her gender. there are plenty of males that would do the same

[Stuka]

OK, my .02. First thing is that traditionally, at least in American society, women have been pushed away from tech jobs. This, of course, has nothing to do with ability. Second, the geek image, and the lack of social life that go with it, are more foreign to women than men (face it, guys, the ladies have better social skills across the board! :)) Third, the general computer-geek attitude that "If you don't know, I'm gonna insult you" drives people of both genders away from 'puters, while the preponderance of men w/o social skills drives away more women. I'm probably not 100% right, and I think FoBoT had a good point, but I think those reasons have a LOT to do w/the imbalance.

[Molecule Man]

I also think the numbers are slightly misreported due to the syndrome of
Woman: Hi, I'm a female that likes computers.
Men: <slobber>Really, will you date me?</slobber>
Women: Err, bye.

And the other one is related to cooking. Many women cook, but most good chefs (greater than 50%) are men. Many women cook, but tend to cook simple meal, while men that can cook, tend to cook complex meals. I know this is true with me and my sister. She will cook meat and potatoe where I would put on a five course meal, when I bother to cook.

Anyways if you bothered to read this far, my point is that women tend to view computers as a job or career, where men view it as a hobby that can get paid for. Combine that with a Society that frowns upon women in science and math and is it any wonder there are so few in Computers?

I remember back in college that in Biology there was probably slightly more femalethan males, but that was the only major like it, and the rest of the science majors were much more lopsided.

[linuxgrrl]

Originally posted by Shad:
Anyways if you bothered to read this far, my point is that women tend to view computers as a job or career, where men view it as a hobby that can get paid for. Combine that with a Society that frowns upon women in science and math and is it any wonder there are so few in Computers?

Combine this with the fact that by the time a woman graduates from school, gets married (if she chooses to do so), and begins raising a family while working full-time (most have to work outside the home), she has little, if any, time for hobbies... whether that hobby be cooking or playing with computers. I think that Shad made an interesting point. There is probably not a perception among many circles of women that they could get paid for participating in a hobby... As the saying goes, "A woman's work is never done." As a full-time working mother, I'm living it. I encourage girls and women to invest time in learning about technology. Technology is one of the fields that offers people several options for working from home! And if a gal doesn't want to stay at home, good for her. That's great, too, but learning about technology is never a poor investment of one's time.

[11000]

Originally posted by linuxgrrl:
I wasn't talking about receiving trouble on the boards so much as seeing threads in some of the forums where men and boys talk rudely about females, as if women were nothing more than sex objects or toys. It is a boys club, but it takes both males and females to rectify the problem, not only the perseverence of the strongest females.

Absolutely! Lately the topics have been worse then usual, and it's offensive.

I think there's probably three things that keep women away from computers.
1. Some Computer guys acting like perverts. (take a look at some of the threads in off-topic if you don't know what I mean.)
2. Some Computer guys hitting on any girl who knows anything about computers. It's not necessarily bad(I'm used to being hit on by guys). But the part that's bad, is I never feel like I'm being taken seriously by a lot of computers guys. As in, I get the feeling they're only interested in whether I'm cute, not whether or not I can install and configure Slackware in an hour.
3. The idea that women aren't good at logical/technical stuff. You know, society's perception. The idea that girls are better at english and guys are better at science and logic. This is something that girls have to get past to get into the computer industry. And some women never bother, they just go into different fields.

So as women we have to ignore all that if we really want to be in the computer industry. Of course, it would be helpful if there was less for us to ignore! :)

Edit: clarified some phrasing, as I mentioned in a post below.

[ 15 February 2001: Message edited by: 11000 ]

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by 11000:
Absolutely! Lately the topics have been worse then usual, and it's offensive.


isn't that why they are "moderated" forums?
one of the off-topic moderators is a woman, yes?

[11000]

Originally posted by FoBoT:
isn't that why they are "moderated" forums?
one of the off-topic moderators is a woman, yes?

Well, I don't know how often she checks the forums.

Anyway, it's apparently not offensive enough to moderate. Just enough to generally keep women away.

[hswoolve]

I wrote:
Her work to date has been a case of cutting and pasting the work of other team members. I'm not sure she's even opened the book.

and fobot replied:
that is not likely related to her gender.

True, I used it as an example of a lazy student/cheater, not gender bias. The person left in charge when the teacher had to leave the class was female.

[11000]

Hmmm, I think I need to add something to my earlier post. I used the term "computer guys" which could be interpreted as "all computer guys", and that's true. Because, I know a lot of computer guys that are nice, and don't do the things I mentioned. So I'll edit that post and put the word "some" in front! :)
Sorry if it came across the wrong way.

[linuxgrrl]

Originally posted by 11000:
Anyway, it's apparently not offensive enough to moderate. Just enough to generally keep women away.

I think that many threads ARE offensive enough to be moderated. The problem is that we tend to look at those topics as "only sexist" and expect that it is the job of entirely half the population to overlook such offensiveness. I'll bet a user would be tossed off the message boards right quickly if the topics in question were racist instead of sexist. I hope a moderator will read this!

[ 15 February 2001: Message edited by: linuxgrrl ]

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by linuxgrrl:
I'll bet a user would be tossed off the message boards right quickly if the topics in question were racist instead of sexist. I hope a moderator will read this!


i have only been on this board 6 months, and only heavy/frequent for about 3 months. the moderators seem to me to prefer to only take action in extreme cases. freedom of choice, members can choose which forums/threads to read.

so i think that if there are threads that you don't read, and you don't like that they exist here, then you may not be happy :(

[linuxgrrl]

Originally posted by FoBoT:
i have only been on this board 6 months, and only heavy/frequent for about 3 months. the moderators seem to me to prefer to only take action in extreme cases. freedom of choice, members can choose which forums/threads to read.

so i think that if there are threads that you don't read, and you don't like that they exist here, then you may not be happy :(


My point is exactly that: it is reprehensible that we don't deem those cases of blatant sexism to be in fact EXTREME cases when we would do so for similar cases involving race or ethnicity! "Just sexism." Why is it up to the female to overlook? Or to not visit? Why should I make choices between enduring sexism to persue an interest and just not persuing the interest to avoid hideous behavior and comments on the parts of a few vulgar gits? BTW - these comments are not always confined to off-topic threads and crop up in ordinary tech threads, too... and even in some signatures. Men aren't asked to do to make these kinds of choices to pursue interests. This is not a question of freedom of speech but of double standards.

[ 15 February 2001: Message edited by: linuxgrrl ]

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by linuxgrrl:
This is not a question of freedom of speech but of double standards.

well to quote one of my favorite radio talk show host (http://www.boortz.com)s "Men are pigs!"

this isn't a "public" board. the people that own/run it can do whatever they want. it isn't like a "workplace". i think you can see by my continuation of this conversation that i would like everybody to feel welcome/comfortable here. but the world is what it is. i always try to be upbeat and helpful and not offensive. you/i can't control anyone

but it comes down to people here are going to be the way they are unless they have a compelling reason to change. and of course everyone has a right to "leave" ie nobody has to click on LNO, we all choose to come here and read about stuff we are interested in. many of the young men that are offending you would simply go to other places on the internet, not change a lick.

i think i am rambling, but i don't think there is an answer/solution that will make you happy. i hope you and other women that are interested in technology, et al can find what you are comfortable with.

i certainly don't have the answer to this problem :(

[ 15 February 2001: Message edited by: FoBoT ]

[LOSTinDOS]

in my networking course, of 12people, 4 are girls, 2 of us know what we are doing. The teachers are male and the school is run by men. My classmates treat us like fragile imbaciles, and the teachers are condescending. It's a tough ride, but I'm up for the challenge.undefined

[bobtcowboy]

Originally posted by 11000:
[B]Absolutely! Lately the topics have been worse then usual, and it's offensive.


could you post a link or two, so we're on the same page?


1. Some Computer guys acting like perverts. (take a look at some of the threads in off-topic if you don't know what I mean.)


Ok... I'm looking in Off Topic right now and I see some that might be...

Geek Dating (http://www.linuxnewbie.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=005322) - though I'm not too sure on this one...
Girls, girls, girls (http://www.linuxnewbie.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=005328) - pictures of girls from magazines and what not...

are these offensive to you? personally, I don't see why these would keep a girl from going into an industry... you'll find these types of discussions/images *everywhere* but it doesn't prevent girls from dealing with it and going into other industries... I don't mean to downplay this situation, but I have to say that I think the majority of girls that don't get into computers just don't get into them because they aren't interested... I sincerely don't think we lose too many of the female population because of any kind of mistreatment...

unless, of course, you are in some backwater area (like ohh... Arkansas, Tennessee, Louisiana, etc [nothing personal mind you, just throwing some names out there ;) ]) in which case the problem is not the geek population in general, but the people in the area


2. Some Computer guys hitting on any girl who knows anything about computers. It's not necessarily bad(I'm used to being hit on by guys). But the part that's bad, is I never feel like I'm being taken seriously by a lot of computers guys. As in, I get the feeling they're only interested in whether I'm cute, not whether or not I can install and configure Slackware in an hour.
3. The idea that women aren't good at logical/technical stuff. You know, society's perception. The idea that girls are better at english and guys are better at science and logic. This is something that girls have to get past to get into the computer industry. And some women never bother, they just go into different fields.


these are less something that deal with these forums directly, and I never witness these types of sentiments in my classes/friends/surroundings... generally for the people I know, they are interested more in these girls because of this, and tend to treat them more politely...

[disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone based upon their geographic location, the names I chose were based purely on whim and my personal experience with the place]

Bill

[YaRness]

i went to a college that was 70% women. usually the compsci classes (that's my degree, so i'm talking about 300-400 level classes, not just intro) were 50/50. which is a little more, i think, than what would be solely accountable under the population difference. also, about half of the professors are women. and one of the male professors is pretty keen on women in computing issues.

so it was pretty neat.

[knute]

You know, I only know one woman personally that knows a lot about computers, and she isn't one to "talk shop" alot.

I know that one of my sisters is interested in computers and she is 12 atm.

When I encounter a female that knows about computers, it is a novelty. It doesn't mean that I won't take you seriously, nor does it mean that I'm going to hit on you (been happily married for 10 years :) )....

What it means is that I haven't encountered a female that is secure enough in herself to show her male counterparts her intelligence.

Actually, it is medical fact that a woman can think faster than a man simply because of the amount of connections between the hemispheres of the brain, whereas men have greater lung capacity, muscles, and stamina. No offense is intended, but I think that most females don't enter the computing field simply because they don't want to appear smarter than their boyfriends/husbands/potential mates.

To be honest, that is sad, and i think that the computer industry has been set back by the lack of a more major female influence, simply because a females bring a different perspectives to it than males.

[11000]

Originally posted by bobtcowboy:

Ok... I'm looking in Off Topic right now and I see some that might be...

Geek Dating - though I'm not too sure on this one...
Girls, girls, girls - pictures of girls from magazines and what not...


Actually, those two weren't necessarly the worst. There was one recently where someone posted the "Graphical Instructions" for certian feminine hygeine products in a thread. Uhm, not exactly something I wanted to see on a computer BBS. And other threads that linuxgrrl talked about where women are talked about as objects. Toys and playthings. Not human beings with brains.


Originally posted by bobtcowboy:
are these offensive to you? personally, I don't see why these would keep a girl from going into an industry... you'll find these types of discussions/images *everywhere* but it doesn't prevent girls from dealing with it and going into other industries... I don't mean to downplay this situation, but I have to say that I think the majority of girls that don't get into computers just don't get into them because they aren't interested... I sincerely don't think we lose too many of the female population because of any kind of mistreatment...

In relation to this BBS I think we have lost some female posters because of this "mistreatment". I don't think most people can mention more then 15 females that post here at all much less frequently. Since I've posted more messages then any other female here(more then most guys too) I don't think I'm just being overly sensitive.

I'd say that generally speaking, the guys that would be inclined to post offensive stuff here, would not talk about the same things around women they know. But they seem to forget that anybody could be reading this forum, and that if they want to treat it as a "Boys Only" club then don't be suprised that the women don't stick around. :)

Originally posted by bobtcowboy:

these are less something that deal with these forums directly, and I never witness these types of sentiments in my classes/friends/surroundings... generally for the people I know, they are interested more in these girls because of this, and tend to treat them more politely...



True, I was generally treated politely in classes and such, so I'm not complaining. The only problems that I had in classes would be that guys(including instructors) would assume because I'm female and because the way I look that I'm going to be somewhat dumb, or at least not as smart as they would assume a guy would be. Of course, this worked somewhat in my favour because I worked harder to prove myself then I would've if I hadn't been fighting that assumption.

[linuxgrrl]

Originally posted by bobtcowboy:
are these offensive to you? personally, I don't see why these would keep a girl from going into an industry... you'll find these types of discussions/images *everywhere* but it doesn't prevent girls from dealing with it and going into other industries... I don't mean to downplay this situation, but I have to say that I think the majority of girls that don't get into computers just don't get into them because they aren't interested... I sincerely don't think we lose too many of the female population because of any kind of mistreatment...

This is rich coming from the guy who posts on the topic "looking for chicks" in a Window Manager forum.

You're all fairly clever. Do the math, boys:
We want girls around + It is our right as the incorrigible half of the human species to act like ogres = No females around... We'll have to settle for pictures.

We want girls to be interested in technology + We don't think they should be able to have segregated programs for the purpose of sparking the initial interest = Still no girls...

Well...quelle surprise!

I am still here because I am tenacious and don't require happiness to flourish and foster my interests. This appears to be the case with the other female posters (such as 11000). This is not true for most human beings... male or female... You ARE losing female companions, even if only electronic ones, because of this sorry locker room behavior.

[bobtcowboy]

Originally posted by linuxgrrl:
This is rich coming from the guy who posts on the topic "looking for chicks" in a Window Manager forum.


Ahhh... I was wondering when that would be mentioned... now, if you'll read that post, you'll note that I was not looking for pornography... nor was I making any disrespectful remarks about techno-gals or girls in general... I merely wanted some pictures of good looking women sporting the linux brand name (even if they are touched up)... is it wrong or disrespectful to think of a girl as attractive?? (though it is quite true that the that site that the pictures came from is far from PC)

but can you seriously say that finding/wanting a picture of an attractive girl is limited to male techno-philes? No. I think not. Your argument should be against all males as a group, not just the techies. (in which case I won't argue with you... guys as a group are pig-headed) And I'll say again: I sincerely doubt that many girls have decided not to get into computers because of these types of actions. The tampon thing was a bit rude, but haven't you seen worse on the net?


You're all fairly clever. Do the math, boys:
We want girls around + It is our right as the incorrigible half of the human species to act like ogres = No females around... We'll have to settle for pictures.


If I were thin skinned, I would take offense to this. This is far more offensivet han wanting a picture of an attractive girl. Calling people you've never met ogres and incorrigible is the sort of thing that sends people away, IMO...


We want girls to be interested in technology + We don't think they should be able to have segregated programs for the purpose of sparking the initial interest = Still no girls...


We want <insert minority> to be interested in technology so we're going to have a separate program for the minority and the rest of society. We expect no one to take issue with this and we think it will bring even more minorities into the field. Pardon... but what the hell kinda logic is that? o0o0o. Lets repeal all those silly ammendments too...

Why can't you merely accept the fact that for whatever reason, girls tend not to be interested in computers?


I am still here because I am tenacious and don't require happiness to flourish and foster my interests.

I'm not sure if I should commend you for your passion for your field (I have a similar drive), or to feel sorry that you're doing it even if it makes you unhappy...

You ARE losing female companions, even if only electronic ones, because of this sorry locker room behavior.

I don't believe so. Its sad that there aren't that many girls in the field, but it has little to nothing to do with the people already in the field. Most girls I talk to about computers tend to smile and nod... they're not even vaguely interested. Its not because I'm intimidating them, or talking down to them. Its because they could care less (quite like the majority of the population) about what a computer is besides a place to check email, and occasionally type out some homework (unless of course, they can get someone with good typing skills to do it)... and thats it. The word "compile" as it applies to computers will likely never become a part of their vocabulary, and they don't mind it one bit.

Bill

[linuxgrrl]

Originally posted by bobtcowboy:
If I were thin skinned, I would take offense to this. This is far more offensivet han wanting a picture of an attractive girl. Calling people you've never met ogres and incorrigible is the sort of thing that sends people away, IMO...

This is the attitude that is conveyed by the males who refuse to admit that there actions have anything to do with the dearth of females in their general vicinity. It is not that I believe they ARE incorrigible but that they seem for some reason to believe it is their RIGHT to remain so. (I certainly have expectations that boys not be incorrigibile!) Find a pleasant and intelligent woman who likes to be with you and look at her, but the site to which you referred previously was just another typical example of the objectification of the female. It's part of a sad and worn-out double standard. Many of the threads in the off-topic areas ARE sexist and ogre-like.

[bobtcowboy]

Originally posted by linuxgrrl:
This is the attitude that is conveyed by the males who refuse to admit that there actions have anything to do with the dearth of females in their general vicinity.


I see... well, first off, I'd like to say, that there is no 'dearth of females in my general vicinity'..... 90% of my friends happen to be female... so obviously the females around me are a lot less uptight than the ones that you seem to be so convinced are reading these forums and turning their backs to technology in disgust...


Find a pleasant and intelligent woman who likes to be with you and look at her, but the site to which you referred previously was just another typical example of the objectification of the female. It's part of a sad and worn-out double standard.


And I'll say again: Your problem is with males and advertising and the media in general. Though you seem to be trying to say that techie-guys should be different than other guys.... or that somehow we are worse that other guys... that site objectifies (sp?) the female, true... but so does Cosmo. So does half of the other advertising out there. Why do you take particular offense at this BBS? Or techie-guys in general?

Your cause is just, but you're fighting the battle on the wrong front


Many of the threads in the off-topic areas ARE sexist and ogre-like.


First off, I'd be willing to bet that some of the posts you're taking offense to are actually light-hearted in nature...

Obviously, though, some are sexist. And some might even be 'ogre-like' as much as I believe that is rude to say. But you'll find similar thoughts and sentiments in all kinds of fields. Computer nerds are not over-sexist nor are they ogre-ish... which leads back to my point... computer nerd-guys are not scaring any appreciable amount of women away from the field

Bill

PS: I'm willing to agree to disagree whenever you are... this thread is interesting, but I don't want any hard feelings to arise from it...

[Tyr-7BE]

Actually, here at Waterloo, Comp Sci isn't quite a 50/50 split...more like a 60/40 split, but it's better than a 90/10!
And it has been my personal experience that men and women are of equal talent in the field of Computer Engineering. There are very few women in my class, but I have worked with a great many of them and have found all of them to be just as good as anyone else (anyone else being male), some of them even better! No one gender is any better at computers than the other.
I have a great many female relatives who seem to love to perpetuate the age-old stereotype of "oh you like computers? <voice tone="nerd">Well wow! That's sure nifty!</voice>" It seems that my male relatives tend to be more accepting of the tech industry, and display a greater interest in the subject matter of my courses and profession. I do not pretend to know why this is, nor do I aim to offend anybody. These are simply my observations. I don't know whether these are common observations or not, but it's something to be kept in mind...for a good many females, either the interest isn't there, or the geek-stereotype keeps them away. I wish I could find a link to back this up with (by "find" I mean "take the time to" ;)), but I believe that studies show that adolescent females feel more pressed to "fit in" during their youth. It is for this reason that eating disorders such as annhorexia and bohlemia (I know I know...TOTALLY mangled the spelling of both of those words) are more prominent in young females today than males. It's an age-old story: the big high-school prom coming up, and a girl doesn't have a date; she's devastated. Big high-school prom coming up and a guy doesn't have a date; no biggy...go stag with some of the guys. I know from fairly recent personal experience that guys feel these pressures too (yes, I was one of those losers without a date :p), but I'm not sure if we feel them to the extent that the ladies feel them. I'm just wondering whether or not the need to be popular and socially acceptable has anything to do with the avoidance of technology and the perpetuation of the stereotype. Thoughts? Comments? Am I retarded? Sorry if I've offended anyone here, but I'm just going on my observations.

[Tyr-7BE]

Originally posted by linuxgrrl:
You're all fairly clever. Do the math, boys:
We want girls around + It is our right as the incorrigible half of the human species to act like ogres = No females around... We'll have to settle for pictures.

We want girls to be interested in technology + We don't think they should be able to have segregated programs for the purpose of sparking the initial interest = Still no girls...

Well...quelle surprise!

I am still here because I am tenacious and don't require happiness to flourish and foster my interests. This appears to be the case with the other female posters (such as 11000). This is not true for most human beings... male or female... You ARE losing female companions, even if only electronic ones, because of this sorry locker room behavior.

Keep in mind that not all men are like this. I hate to see an entire gender slandered due to the actions of a select few. I do not apologize for other males, as I have no influence over how they act or what they do, but I for one try to avoid that sort of "locker room behavior."

[Sterling]

Ditto. I've found that its a lot more fun to actually be friends with girls as opposed to drooling over them and making immature remarks. However, I've also found that a lot of my gender are (to use the phrasing above) ogres. Ah, well. Their loss. :rolleyes:

[hswoolve]

I finally did a nose count in my class.

12 people, 5 female. 2 competent in the subject (databases/Oracle), 1 clueless wonder, 1 unknown.

On a down note, my team of 5 is being split into a 3 person group and a 2 person group. I'm in the 2 person group, with the info-systems major (the clueless wonder). Believe it or not, I agreed to this. There were 3 people in the team who understood SQL, but if she'd been paired with the competent male member, she might've played dumb and not learned a thing except how to manipulate people.

Sometimes I'm ashamed of my gender.

[mjb0314]

Originally posted by knute:
...I think that most females don't enter the computing field simply because they don't want to appear smarter than their boyfriends/husbands/potential mates.


Umm...I have absolutely no problems letting men know that I'm smarter than them :D

On a serious note, I have found it necessary to prove myself to men that I am as good at coding as they are. After the initial shock to their systems, there are guys in my classes that actually come to me for help coding :) I have found that if I'm persistent enough, I can earn the respect of the people around me, whether they're male or female.

[ep0k]

I'm sorry but the whole one-up crap is just that, crap. I mean who really goes around thinking "I'm smarter that you are" That's just rediculous. I have worked with women that left me awe struck by their superior knowledge in a certain field; be it Coputers, Wan, Telecom, or whatever. I wasn't in awe that it was a knowledgeable woman per se, but just the sheer knowledge itself. I have been in awe of men in the same respect. I have never felt as if someone were smarter than me though. If you as a woman are in an environment where you feel as if you need to compete with men then change environments. We should be at a point in our society where colaboration should win over competition. I personally work in an environment like that. Sure people are going to joke about whatever but when it comes to business, everyone has an input and everyones input is listened to. Not just heard, listened to. I understand that women might feel pressure to work harder and prove themselves. Do you think men don't? Everyone has a reason to work as hard as they can (let's all forget the fact that i'm posting from work now, okay? Thank you). I have a pretty decent job now and i can tell you it has nothing to do with my penis. This is the job that i want right now in my life and i am good at it. And every day i try my hardest to do a better job and learn more about what i'm doing and keep the CEO happy. I treat everyone here the same. If your pc dies or a server get's knocked offline or a router goes belly up I am going to do everything in my power to get it fixed as fast and permanently as i can. I don't care if you're Male, Female, used to be the other or what.

It is a shame that there aren't more women in this field though. Just for the fact that women think differently than men do and would bring a much needed change of viewpoint to the table.

I just rambled didn't I???

Anyway i guess what i'm trying to say is Not all of us men are Ogres so if you don't want to be refered to as a generalization then don't make generalizations. It's a two way street.

Get over your hang ups and do what you need to do to be happy. If you can't deal with the itty bitty percent of *******s that frequent techie boards like this one then find something else to do. Why torture yourself. But, if you can share the knowledge with the overwhelming percent of decent folk on these boards then by all means keep at it. And while your here could you give me some advice on postgreSQL... I got a bigg assed project that i don't know how to do?

In closing:
I honestly do not want to offend anyone with this post. I just want to plant some ideas. If it offend you let me know and i will edit or delete it.

[element-x]

I'm sure I'm not the only one here thinking this, because I think I saw it in an earlier post, but, for the number of guys who treat girls/women unfairly, with disrespect that's their problem, and guys that actually have common sense, a sense of decency towards girls/women, might just deserve to receive the same back from them, and shouldn't lose out because of a select few.

I suppose I could be wrong, I'm not a female, so I don't know what goes on from your point of view, but I think that the 'nice guys' shouldn't lose out on sharing a 'co-ed' message board(I said co-ed cause I had no idea how else to say it). The reason I say "lose out" is because, to me it's really really nice to see even one female that actually shows an active interest in computers, much less shows an active interest in proramming or linux.

All this back and forth stuff I had read through in this thread is really kind of ...well not worth it. If someone, anyone treats you with disrespect, they deserve none back themselves, but for those who give you the respect you deserve, no matter who it is, should at the absolute least, deserve the same amount of respect back.

So...I guess what I'm trying to say is, do not generalize everyone for the sake of a select few individuals for any reason, in any situation. :D

Ok, I might want to add, I usually don't know what I'm talking about, so if any of this sounds stupid or looks stupid or is stupid, feel more than free to call me an idiot ;)

[mjb0314]

Originally posted by mjb0314:
Umm...I have absolutely no problems letting men know that I'm smarter than them :D

On a serious note, I have found it necessary to prove myself to men that I am as good at coding as they are. After the initial shock to their systems, there are guys in my classes that actually come to me for help coding :) I have found that if I'm persistent enough, I can earn the respect of the people around me, whether they're male or female.

My post was a knee jerk reaction to some of the other posts I had read, I should have rephrased it, I didn't realize how arrogant my post sounded until I read the reply after it (written by ep0k) and then reread my post. No, I don't feel like I have to earn the respect of everyone around me, but there have been times in the past when I felt like I wasn't being given enough respect for my knowledge. And I certainly don't go around thinking that I'm smarter than everyone, like I said the post was an initial reaction and should have been rephrased. It was meant to be sarcastic and obviously didn't come off that way.

The majority of the guys I have worked with at school and at my job have treated me with the same respect they give to other guys. So I guess I've been pretty lucky.

[tnordloh]

The lower level classes are a lot more even split. I've just noticed a lot less females in higher level math. When it comes to things like math, there is definitely an attrition, and more girls seem to be eliminated than guys. I don't know what this means, really. After all, one building over, there is an entire building full of girls learning microbiology for their nursing degrees.

Personally, I think a degree in nursing is harder than a degree in computer science. Let's face it, when it comes to programming, the majority of us will end up coding financial programs. Those nurses will have human lives in their hands every single day for their entire career. I can't help but respect that, and practically every person in health sciences is female. I think a degree in nursing is worth a LOT more than a degree in computer science.

Maybe it's a weakness of guys that we take the 'easy degree', where our greatest worry will be misplacing a decimal point. Maybe the reason girls don't take math and high level programming classes is because they're too smart for that crap. Maybe they feel that the real challenges lie elsewhere.

[mstembri3]

Originally posted by Tyr-7BE:
Ummm..no...we're saying that there should be more women in computers.

Allow me to pose a philosophical question.

Why?

Why should anyone state that there "should" be more (insert sex) in (insert field/hobby)?

I could make the same statement about, oh... coal mining, or garbage pickup.

Just don't see the logic behind it. All I see is a bit of a double standard.

[Aikidoka]

I like my field: Chemistry. That's pretty much an even field, it does vary depending in what type of chemistry and the industry but it's pretty even.

The head chemist where I work is female. The plant next to ours also has a woman as their head chemist. In our lab actually males are the minority but our boss is a man.

I just look at people by the way they act and their knowledge, wether male or female. I just want the most qualified person working with me, that's all.

Why did I get involved in this thread? I dunno I'm just typing now so I look busy at work. testing 1 2 3 testing 1 2 3.

Damn I'm so bored. I'm just me, like me or not makes me no difference. blah blah blah blah. Sorry for this post.

[bobtcowboy]

Originally posted by mstembri3:
Allow me to pose a philosophical question.

Why?

Why should anyone state that there "should" be more (insert sex) in (insert field/hobby)?



I think what he meant to say was "We wouldn't mind more women in the industry."

Bill

[L0s3r]

Okay, I'll throw my opinion into the ring. In my networking class of about 16 people who actually attend, there's 6 girls.. Now, all but one of the guys has done extensive work as a hobby with computers before. None of the girls have.. I think there might be a problem where girls are getting shoved out of the tech field, but it isn't in schools or when people hire. No, the problem is before all that, we have to look at "why aren't girl's into computers as a hobby?" That's the problem. If I had to guess myself, it's the way society is.. If you're a girl, you have to put on your make up and look all pretty and are supposed to enjoy shopping and stuff.. If you're a guy, you're supposed to do the guy stuff like build things or whatever. And on that issue, I would say girls are just as responsible for the problem as any guy. So, how do we solve the problem? If you think mandating equality in hiring practices is the solution, you're probably off. If I have two applicants, one that has been messing with computers for ten years as a hobby plus college training, the other with just the college training, I would be insane to hire the lesser qualified person. Same argument for the school, if I take two people and put them through the exact same training, the one that knew more before the training is likely going to know more after. We need to get girls interested in computers earlier in life, or do away with the girl/boy standards. The boys don't necessarily have to be the tough ones that build everything, nor do the girls have to be the ones with the pretty makeup.. Ofcourse, that seems like a monstrous job, so we'll probably just put in affirmative action for girls :eek:

[Tyr-7BE]

Originally posted by mstembri3:
Allow me to pose a philosophical question.

Why?

Why should anyone state that there "should" be more (insert sex) in (insert field/hobby)?

I could make the same statement about, oh... coal mining, or garbage pickup.

Just don't see the logic behind it. All I see is a bit of a double standard.


Now to me you're just playing the devil's advocate; arguing for the sake of arguing. Where is the double standard in this? I don't see it. More women in computing = more ideas, different ways of thinking, and office diversity. It is my opinion that there should be more women in computing. Working with guys day in/day out gets tiresome. Personally, I find it refreshing when there's an even split in the gender in the office. Now I'm not thinking "oh boy...more to molest!" I'm just thinking that a woman may approach a problem differently than a man might. At break-times and on projects, socializing with women is entirely different than socializing with men, and it adds variety in your co-workers and puts a good-feeling spin on things, knowing that everyone is included in what you're doing at the office, and that it's not restricted to any one gender.

[ 03 March 2001: Message edited by: Tyr-7BE ]

[mstembri3]

Using the same logic, there should be more women who work in the sanitation industry (gabagewomen), more females in hazardous waste removal feild, more ladies working 10 stories below the surface mining ore, ect..

All for the same reasons stated in your last post.

The double standard comes in when we advocate women's equaility in nice, cush, high paying jobs -- but not in dangerous, labourous, and life-shortening careers that currently are highly underrepresented by women.

If it's equality you seek, seek it fairly and across the board. Or don't seek it at all. :)

[NumberOneSlacker]

Hmm, in my Calculus class, there are about as many girls as guys, but in my networking class, there's only one girl out of about 8 or so students and she sometimes doesn't show up at all. Just throwin in some statistics...

[Tyr-7BE]

Originally posted by mstembri3:
Using the same logic, there should be more women who work in the sanitation industry (gabagewomen), more females in hazardous waste removal feild, more ladies working 10 stories below the surface mining ore, ect..


All for the same reasons stated in your last post.


The double standard comes in when we advocate women's equaility in nice, cush, high paying jobs -- but not in dangerous, labourous, and life-shortening careers that currently are highly underrepresented by women.


If it's equality you seek, seek it fairly and across the board. Or don't seek it at all. :)

Hrmmm...did I mention that I'm a selfish prick? No? Well I am. That said, I was referring to my field when I posted that. I meant that personally, I like having women around the office to add a sense of diversity and just to talk to. If I was working a kilometer underground, I'd probably be wishing for some women to work with me there too...although I'm not so certain about the type of woman who chooses to work in a coal mine :p
Sorry...should have been more clear when I said that I'd like to see more women in the industry, because those are the people who I would be working with. Plus, the issue here is the shortage of women in computing...I see getting more women into the computing field as a possible remedy for that :D

[mstembri3]

In my 2d design class I'm one of 5 males out of a class of 19.

In my Algebra class there are 3 males out of 14 students.

See this article from Time for current stats on the college 'gender gap' - it might suprise you. http://www.time.com/time/education/article/0,8599,90446,00.html

[mstembri3]

Ah, getting this back 'on thread'... :)

There is one female out of 10 positions at our tech support department. That is actually an oddity for the feild I'm in. Most competing dental software makers' support techs are female. <shrugs>