Hard Drive Dead/Not Dead.

[Pepse]

This problem should fit here.

My first boot hard drive quit working Sunday when I attempted to go to it. It did the one check that "your hard drive hasn't been checked in 20 attempts....now checking" or something like that then it crashed. And being my first boot drive through BIOS I was freaked. Spent a while trying to figure out what the problem was as BIOS recognizes it but GRUB doesn't I run 4 hard drives on my system. I finally let Mandriva Spring 2008.1 Live CD run until it finally gave me a desktop (Took about 15 minutes to load as it kept giving I/O errors). So, once it loaded I checked the device manager and discovered that my first boot hard drive was not in the list. Well I removed it and Grub let me continue without that drive. A first for me and GRUB. It has KUBUNTU 8.04 on it. It is an IDE HDD. So, I have another tower and I put it in and of course it isn't seen. It is a Maxtor so first I downloaded Seagate's SeaTools for windows; I slaved it to that computer's master. The program didn't work; just hung up while searching for drives. So then I went and downloaded a Seagate/Maxtor program for DOS. I ran the Linux drive only and I did a long test. After 2 hours it came back that there are errors on this NON Seagate hard drive and I should contact the manufacturer. Funny they own Maxtor. Anyway I think that it is my MBR that is pooched. Any ideas on how I can be sure of the problem? I would like to recover some files on this drive.

Later. Pepse.

[happybunny]

i've been fighting a hard drive problem for a week or so now myself.

First drive 1 had error, and then suddenly so did drive 2.

A new 3rd IDE drive was also throwing errors.

That's weird.

Turned out to be RAM related. Ran memtest overnight, pulled the bad stick and no more disk errors...

just a thought.

[saikee]

My suggestion would be to put the bad disk on an external hdd enclosure and offer it to a USB port. This allows a user to use the disk on an as-needed basis to limit the damage.

If the disk suffers file corruption restricted to the MBR the disk should behave normally when it is not required to boot.

If the file corruption is at an early stage most if not all the files can be read at normal speed. However if the excessive time is taken to read some of its content then the file corruption could be in an advance state.

A bad disk if readable now can deteriorate very quickly. The continuous rotataion of the internal platters will cause the corruption to spread, like a grain of dust particle, say trapped in the read/write head, scratching the magnetic surface. Data recovery should be conducted before the hard disk is no longer readable and detected by the Bios.

[Pepse]

happybunny,

I put this drive in another computer and ran it as a slave and a master. The problem still persists.

Saikee

I do presume that the MBR is probably pooched. I downloaded a Seagate/Maxtor DOS program to scan the drive and after 2.5 hours it came back with the fact that there are errors on the drive but since it is Not a Seagate drive it wouldn't give me more info. It is a Maxtor 120 GB drive. I downloaded Seagate's Seatools for windows but it didn't work; it just hung up while searching the drives.

But as I said, I suspect the MBR is bad and I found a Maxtor floppy for when you get a new Maxtor hard drive and there is an advanced part that has to ability to repair the MBR. I don't know if I can trust it. Your opinion?

"My suggestion would be to put the bad disk on an external hdd enclosure and offer it to a USB port." How? What?

Later. Pepse.

[saikee]

I have used several manufacturers' free diagnostic. They are not really useful. The MBR in this case is the Dos/Win9x and may not even work for Win2k/Winxp. No chance for repairing the MBR for a Linux.

The hard disk should be easily diagnosed. After you have removed the hard disk you can buy a cheap external hard disk enclosure which is just a box with a USB2 interface card for inserting into the hard disk. Thereafter the hard disk will be read as an external USB hard disk by "any" operating system. The OS simply treat it as a USB disk. Nothing more and nothing less. The external enclosures have many variations as follow

(1) Some are for IDE disks and some are for Sata disks but you can buy one that fits both (with IDE interface at one end and a Sata interface at the opposite end for connection)

(2) The external enclosure can be for the small 2.5" laptop hard disk or the 3.5" full size desktop hard disk.

(3) You can have USB2, Firewire or eSata interface. You pay slightly more to get more than one interface.

(4) The enternal enclosure is shipped with its own power supply for 3.5" disk but it is standard not to supply the power supply for the 2.5" disk. This is because a twin head USB cable can get 1 Amp current supply from 2 USB ports and nearly all 2.5" hdd consume current between 0.35 to 1 Amp. Modern hdd, say one that you purchase now should have current consumption below 0.5 Amp as apparently this has been the latest standard. I found this out from a 500Gb 2.5" bought last month when talking to the shops. People regard me as an idiot when asking for a twin head USB cable!

(5) You can actually buy just a interface block, with connections for both 2.5" and 3.5", for both IDE and Sata and for both USB2 and eSata. I have one myself. You simply plug it to any naked hard disk and then hook a USB cable to the PC.

(6) The latest is the USB/eSata docking station. This is by far the best arrangement. The docking station can accept both 2.5" or 3.5" Sata as the connections are identical. IDE type docking station is less common but available. The connection can be by USB or/eSata. It accepts the nake hdd directly as with an enclosure one needs to screw the hdd down. With a docking station or an interface block the naked or bare hard disk is used directly. In eSata connection the hdd docking station will be viewed by the Bios as an internal hard disk so it can boot as a normal internal hard disk!. I have two of them and been using MS Windows and Linux in bare hard disks operational outside the PC for years.

In UK my last enclosure bought was a twin IDE/Sata interfaces 2.5" enclosure, with eSata/USb connections and cost below £20. This is about the same I paid for a Sata docking station with twin output USB ports (as additional selling feature) and a twin USB2/eSata interface.

On a bad hard disk the MBR is only 512 byte large and should not affect the hard disk performance except during the booting stage. The 64-byte partition table is also inside the MBR but the hard disk could be be unusable if there is a fault in it. In any case every partitioning software in Linux will warn you if there is a fault there.

IF the partitions can be mounted but take a long time to read then this to me is a clear evidence of corruption inside. The delay is due to every operating system will assidouslly try to read the data repeatedly until a complete failure.

[Pepse]

As for the external box, I can understand the reasoning for it as it would then be easier/quicker to remove info before the drive becomes totally useless. Simply, I need the 3.5 inch IDE. Now as for the rest of the story. This drive is only being read in BIOS. So, as for your:

"On a bad hard disk the MBR is only 512 byte large and should not affect the hard disk performance except during the booting stage. The 64-byte partition table is also inside the MBR but the hard disk could be be unusable if there is a fault in it. In any case every partitioning software in Linux will warn you if there is a fault there."

Are you saying I should try to partition that drive to see if I can access it that way? Or are you just saying that is how hard drives are? And if you are saying that is how a drive functions then at this point I don't see a reason to buy an external hard drive case as it (unless I am mistaken) still is not going to read the drive. Just so you know I have used the Live discs of Knoppix 5.1.1 and Knoppix 6.0 and Mandriva 2008.1

Later. Pepse.

[saikee]

You should never partition your suspected hdd if you want its data!!!!!!!!!!

I said using the external hdd enclosure is the easiest option. You can put it in as an internal hard disk but try not to boot it. A hard disk can fail to boot if one or more system file has corruption. That is the common problem with MS Windows. In Linux you can boot up a Live CD and use it to mount the partitions inside a bad disk. Thus you should be able to check/verify the disk and retrieve the valuable data when a hdd starts to go bad.

When a bad disk is offered to an operating system it will be seen at a hardware level as long as it is readable.

In Bash this command will report every partition of every hard disk detected by the kernel
fdisk -l
If a newly purchase raw hard disk is present the kernel will still report it but with an empty partition table. If you do not see the disk then at a hardware level the Bios cannot find it! and does the kernel. The infomation of the "fdisk -l" only confirms a readable partition table.

fdisk is the program that can report a hdd even if it has serious error in the partition table and none of the partitions are mountable. Generally it is the best tool to repair the partition table if you keep a copy of the original one.

Therefore if you can see the hard disk and its partitions then the good partitions can be mounted and access normally. Only the bad partitions, with corruptions inside, will slow down the response.

If you can't mount a partition then there could be corruption to the filing indexing system making the OS impossible to present the files accurately to you.

[Pepse]

Okay, so my first job is to get a external hdd enclosure. Then I will let you know and we can figure out what to do next.

Pepse.

[saikee]

You don't need to put the bad disk in an external enclosure if you can tell the Bios not to boot it. Say you boot up a Linux Live CD if the bad disk is the only internal hdd in the PC.

In an external hard disk arranagement you can hook it up, mount the partitions and dismount them any time at your own convenience. I suggest this as the easiest way.

[Pepse]

Okay, I can change my BIOS to boot up the floppy or hdd or USB or CDROM in whatever order. Plus I can set the boot sequence in whatever oder I want for the 4 hdd's. I did put the bad hdd in another computer as the only drive and put in Knoppix 6.0 and it didn't recognize the drive. So, in the 2 computers I have used the hdd is recognized in BIOS and through the one Maxtor floppy but that is all. So, I am thinking at this point there might not be a point in getting an external HDD case. It doesn't sound like it would do any better at seeing the drive through a Live CD.

Pepse.

[saikee]

I have more faith in Linux than you.

It is my experience that if one operating system, say it is a Linux, can see a hard drive then another operating should be able to do the same because both depend on the same Bios information.

A hard disk is rejected by the Bios if it is so corrupted that the Bios cannot be confident to tell its size or make sense of its partition table. In such case no operating system can read it. If you have been able to get a hdd diagnostic to read the hard disk then a Linux Live Cd would pick it up. The command is just
fdisk -l

[Pepse]

Oh, I think I see what I missed. You are saying that just by running a live CD and even though I can't see the hdd and if I open a konsole and type in " fdisk -l " it will still perform the function necessary and give me a readout? Should I use Mandriva, or Knoppix 5.1.1 or 6.0, or Kubuntu?

Later. Pepse.

[saikee]

I would use the newest of the lot. Mandriva would be my choice but anyone should do.

When you are doing diagnostic stay away from the desktop. Konsole is the key.

Also most distro Live CDs now operate a security system that you will be booted up as a normal user without root privileges and therefore cannot damage the system. To deal with a hard disk fully you need root privileges. I think you can get it in Kubuntu by typing "sudo su". In other distros it is either "su" or "sudo su". If the root password is required try "root" or just just press the return. The password is always given at the distro site.

It is not automatic or standard for a distro to mount all your partitions but you can do this manually. let us know if you need such instructions. Post the output of "fdisk -l" here if you have a problem.

[Pepse]

Well I ended up using Kubuntu 9.04 to get where I am right now. As usual it took 10 minutes for it to boot up. That is because of this bad hdd. Anyway here is the output for fdisk -l :


Disk /dev/sda: 122.9 GB, 122942324736 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 14946 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
Disk identifier: 0x191af626

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sda1 * 1 14334 115137823+ 83 Linux
/dev/sda2 14335 14946 4915890 5 Extended
/dev/sda5 14335 14946 4915858+ 82 Linux swap / Solaris

So, to my amazement there really is something there. Hey I grew up with the "if the drive can be saved it would be by formatting it" and hoping for the best after that.

Later. Pepse.

[saikee]

The hard disk has a healthy partition table with only one mountable partition sda1.

You can try to mount it with
sudo su
mkdir /mnt/sda1
mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/sda1
ls /
You can use "ls" to check the directories. Some of if not all the information should be readable and can be salvaged by copying them to other storage media.

Once mounted the partition would be accessible from the graphic desktop too. In your case it would be the KDE of Kubuntu.

[Pepse]

So, you are saying that I can mount this drive the way I originally had it (with 3 other drives) and then I can pull what is needed from sda1. In my original setup this bad drive was sda1 anyway, so by doing the original setup it would still be physically in the same spot. As for BIOS I don't know if I should set that as was or run it the way I have it now the my big SATA drive as number 1?

Later. Pepse.

[saikee]

You should simplify your problem one at a time.

You have a bad drive and you want to recover the information, right? Let say it is your boot disk but you can boot up a Linux Live CD to get a Linux operational without using any of your hard disks.

If you mount the partition sda1, as suggested previously, you can do the same with mounting the partitions of the other 3 disks which you know are good. Therefore you can copy the content of your bad disk to a new location selected by you from any of the other 3 disks. Is this problem solved?

How fast and how complete the transfer of information depends on how bad is your disk. Few things are certain

(1) You have no need for the bad disk bootable.
(2) You have no need to write on the bad disk. This should slow down the corruption.
(3) If there are good areas in the bad disk the data in them are readable and can be salvaged.

Your next problem is unclear to us as we do not know if you need the bad disk back or to boot or not.

You could clone the bad disk to a good disk. When the bad patches are read they would be faithfully copied to the target disk. As the new disk is hardware wise health so the copied files are just damaged data (not hardware corruption) and do not make sense but the rest of the hard disk is good. You can then repair the damaged files or do a re-installation. Is this what you after?

Seem to me you were thrown off the balance when the bad disk failed to boot. The problem may be quite small.

[Pepse]

My main goal is to recover some of the folders in the bad drive. When I was running the 4 drive system only 2 were large drives; the bad one and what is now my number 1 drive. A 120 GB SATA. The other 2 being too small to be of any help. I see I have about 56 GB's on this drive and it should be enough.

"If you mount the partition sda1, as suggested previously, you can do the same with mounting the partitions of the other 3 disks which you know are good. Therefore you can copy the content of your bad disk to a new location selected by you from any of the other 3 disks. Is this problem solved?"

I think I confused you with my last reply. What I mean to do is just hook up the bad drive and the good 120 GB drive and pull what is necessary from the bad to the good.

"Once mounted the partition would be accessible from the graphic desktop too. In your case it would be the KDE of Kubuntu."

Are you saying that I would be able to go to "System Menu-Storage Media" and pull the folders that way? It would be easier for me if that is correct. Otherwise I will use the necessary commands.

The only bad thing when I do this is my inability to recover my T-Bird mail.

As for what I do with the drive later? I ain't concerned about that at this time. I just want to recover what I can as best I can before that drive gets any worse.

I can't afford another drive at this time so cloning is out.

I hope this clears things up as to where I stand.

Later. Pepse.

[saikee]

Once a partition of the bad disk has been mounted say on /mnt/sda1 and your good partition is on /mnt/good_one_sdb3 you should be able to see them in the graphic desktop and copy the files just by "drag and drop" with a mouse.

Equally you can copy them at a BASH terminal using command cp, tar etc.

This command will transfer the entire content of /mnt/sda1 to /mnt/good_one_sdb3, assuming you have format the destination as a blank partition for receiving it.

cd /mnt/sda1
tar cf - . | ( cd /mnt/mnt/good_one_sdb3; tar xf -)
The above command duplicates the entire partition and preserve everything for you. It works by going to your source partition to compress everthing into a tar ball, holds it temporary in memory, moves to your target partition and uncompresses the lot.

[Pepse]

Okay, I am back. I have not done anything yet with the bad drive. But, now, for some reason the Mandriva hard drive is inaccessible; sdc6. That is by going to BIOS and changing BIOS to access dsc6 on boot. On boot it gets to the GRUB screen and hangs there. BUT, that is okay as I don't think I had anything on it worthwhile. So, when I am in my Kubuntu drive and go to "System Menu - Storage Media" and click on sdc6, of course I put in my password, all it shows for sdc6 is guest jim and lost+found. And clicking on guest shows me what's in this hard drive with Kub. And jim and lost+found are inaccessible; each is padlocked. So, I used the commands in this thread to get to sdc6. Now what command do I use to access "home" in that hard drive? I want to check it out to make sure I have nothing on it of value.

I am using this disc to practice before I work on the bad one.

Pepse.

[saikee]

When you use different Linux each one assigns a group and user numbers to the files you created. These numbers can be different and so even with the same username one Linux cannot access the files of another Linux if log in as a normal user. This is how the security in Linux works.

However if you invoke the root privilege you can have all the padlocks removed. The best way to check the files is by terminal using the command "ls". Basically in say a Kubuntu terminal, you invoke the root privilege with command "sudo su", you then make a directory in the filing system, say it is /mnt, mount the device you wish to see and issue the command "ls" to the directory you wish to check. This is the basic skill of Linux. Highly recommended to any multibooter. Assuming the device you wish to check is /dev/sdc6 and my suggested mounting point to be /mnt/sdc6 the commands that will anwer your question will be
sudo su
mkdir /mnt/sdc6
mount /dev/sdc6 /mnt/sdc6
ls /mnt/sdc6/home
You should know /home belong to the Kubuntu have have booted up and /mnt/sdc6/home is from device/dev/sdc6.

From time to time Grub can get corrupted (don't know why but this happens to all boot loader, possibly due to binary bits loss which insignificant to an ordinary file but cause a boot loader to malfunction) but you can always restore it. If your sdc6 is the 6th partition of the 3rd hard disk these commands at Grub prompt or Grub shell will restore Grub in sdc6
root (hd2,5)
setup (hd2,5)

[Pepse]

I do know that on the Mandriva hard drive my password is different because Mandriva said my original password was to short. So that makes sense as to why I can't access the drive through "System Menu-Stoage Media.

So, as for the problem of accessing that drive I understand why it is blocking me. But I did put in the command of: ls /mnt/sdc6/home , and I got bashed: ls: cannot access /mnt/sdc6/home: No such file or directory .

Because of the crash of my other Kubuntu hard drive my grub has not really worked. It sorta works when booting to this hard drive; Kubuntu 8.04. But when I change BIOS to boot either WIN XP or Win7RC1 there is no sign of GRUB. And as for Mandriva, I told you that one already.

Okay if we get this sdc6 hard drive accessed then I still need to know how to access/retrieve files so that when I hook up the bad hard drive I can pull them.

Pepse.

[saikee]

In any Linux, even with a booted up Live CD you can ask Linux to report to you all the hard disks and partitions it sees by command
fdsik -l

If you can't get a directory it may be to do with not having the partition "monuted". If Linux can't read it then it may be due to corruption.

Therefore at a hardware level "fdisk -l" shows everything in a "root" console (with root privilege).

Mounting the partition (as a root user) will enable to access all the files inside the partition.