I am making a transition from using SuSE Linux Professional (now, openSUSE) as my primary Linux distribution to using Debian GNU/Linux 4.0rX ("Etch").
I am experimenting on a used Dell Dimension 8300 that I purchased in early 2006, before an ongoing chronic health problem started to set in and while I was working and had the money for nonessential items. I still have the 2.2-GHz, Pentium-4 -- without hyper-threading -- system that I built in 2002, but -- despite my loathing of proprietary hardware, particularly Windows-only hardware requiring modified drivers from OEMs, including Dell -- I bought two supposedly working used Dell Dimension 8300 systems from an ex-coworker.
I will spare you the details, but the machine is in a temporary location and is not close enough to the router to be connected to the Internet, which may be the major cause of some of my problems.
Initially, I did a test desktop installation from a set of three "Etch" 4.0r3 DVDs (using a spare 80-GB IDE/PATA drive), but -- and I do not mean to cause discord -- I have found that I simply cannot get used to the Gnome desktop environment; in fact, I have stopped trying to install and use Gnome.
Next, I tried a desktop installation and specified "kde-desktop" in the "tasks=" option list, but -- despite using KDE for most of my time with Linux, and having ample hardware resources (except for the monitor) -- KDE seemed bloated and I ended up deleting some default components and installing others.
I decided to give XFCE 4 another try, although I always have two problems with it: I cannot "lasso" (select multiple items) icons on the desktop, and setting the mouse to single-click items (which I got used to doing after using KDE for so many years) does not work most of the time -- and I have these two problems with every version of XFCE 4, regardless of the distribution or whether I've installed it or am using a "live" Linux CD. Please note that I have definitely not ruled out "user error" as the cause of these two problems. :o
Certain programs, such as Synaptic, require Gnome, however, and I ended up with a very discordant-looking interface (a problem I do not recall in my years of running SuSE Linux Professional with KDE). Perhaps I could hack my way to a way to integrate components of KDE and Gnome, but I decided that I would start from scratch again and to try installing a basic XFCE 4 desktop system, although I have never used XFCE without seeing Gnome applications, and not simply applications that were written using GTK, but actual Gnome applications with the Gnome icon.
I had originally thought that XFCE can be used without KDE or Gnome applications, although it will happily use either, but that it has always been a separate desktop environment, but less demanding on resources than KDE or Gnome.
Question: If I do a basic Debian installation and then install the 'libxfce4util-1' Debian package, will I end up with a Debian system that would be equivalent to an "xfce4-desktop" Debian system (much like I entered the "kde-desktop" task to get KDE instead of Gnome)?
I will definitely want to use Synaptic and some other Gnome applications, as well as several KDE applications, but I would prefer to make the most efficient use of my resources. More importantly, the less complicated my Debian GNU/Linux system is, the easier it will be for me to work on keeping the system secure.
(Incidentally, I am actually experimenting with 'fvwm', which I realize seems bizarre, but I like the control that one can achieve with fvwm's main configuration file and other configuration files, so I am also enjoying the experience.)
Although I realize that many of you have never purchased a single book on Linux, I like to have at least one book on the main distribution I use. I have two books on Debian 4.0, and they were written while "Sarge" was the stable release and "Etch" was still the "testing" release, so my best documentation has been from the Debian Web site. (With "Lenny" progressing well towards regular beta releases, I hope there will be a couple of good books published when Debian GNU/Linux 5 is finally the stable release!) :)
Finally, I am actually trying to stick to the "Debian path" of using free and open-source software only, but I am also pragmatic. For example, I know that 'gnash' is a GNU/open-source effort to be an alternative to Adobe's Flash technology, but it is not on the Debian installation DVDs, although it is described in the packages section of the Debian Web site, so I assume it is available on-line as a Debian package (both the free-standing program and the Web browser plug-in), but I had to search quite a while to find out about gnash, which is the more active of two OSS alternatives to Flash.
Actually, I am still working to configure X.org under Debian to recognize my Sun Type 6 keyboard and 3-button, no-scroll-wheel mouse (both USB) and NVIDIA video card. (I will probably switch out the Sun keyboard for a USB Happy Hacking Lite 2 keyboard, however.) Modifying xorg.conf "broke" X and I used the generic version that Debian creates after probing. I have one book on X.org, but it is mainly for hacking X.org (one of the O'Reilly "Hacking..." series of books).
Thank you, in advance, for your time, patience, and help!
Cordially,
David
P.S. -- I have never been able to get the Debian package for Firestarter to compile. I get two Xlib errors about an unspecified parameter and something else. In Synaptic, I read in one package's description that Xlib has been deprecated, although it was installed on my system. Perhaps Xlib works with XFree86, but Debian "Etch" is using X.org. I just wanted to mention the error, because I have read much praise about Firestarter, but I may have to set up IP tables from the command line. Thanks!
folkert
03-30-2008, 10:21 AM
I don't know the answer to most questions, but here is what i did before I had the xfce system I am using now. It looks like a script, but I type it line by line to see what happens
X -configure
cp /root/xorg.conf.new /etc/X11/xorg.conf
###
now test X and install the rest you want. I did openoffice, firefox, mplayer mpd ....
Hope it helps
mrrangerman43
03-31-2008, 05:48 AM
DavidMD
Welcome back!
I've never installed Xfce from source, you should be able to log into a terminal as root and type apt-get install xfce4-session and it should prompt you for the system binary disk. When you installed Debian did you use the 3dvd set for the repository? If so you shouldn't have to worry about connecting to the internet as you have everything you need.
P.S. -- I have never been able to get the Debian package for Firestarter to compile. I get two Xlib errors about an unspecified parameter and something else.
Again you could try using apt-get or aptitude to install Firestarter, if apt hangs try using it with the -f option, man apt-get for more info.
NOTE: apt has a bug, I run into it every now and then, the -f option will most of the time fix a broken install. If the install fails type apt-get -f install (I think) it's been awhile that I've had apt fail.
Dan
DavidMD
03-31-2008, 01:00 PM
Greetings, folkert! :)
Thank you for your detailed suggestion.
...here is what i did before I had the xfce system I am using now. It looks like a script, but I type it line by line to see what happens
X -configure
cp /root/xorg.conf.new /etc/X11/xorg.conf
###
now test X and install the rest you want. I did openoffice, firefox, mplayer mpd ....
Hope it helps
I will manually try this procedure and see what happens.
Question: I did several Google searches on the apt-get '--ignore-hold' option, but I received no results. I have not yet checked my two books on Debian, however, which may describe '--ignore-hold'. (Does '--ignore-hold' force immediate installation of a given package?)
(One book is the Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 Bible, by Benjamin Mako Hill, David B. Harris, and Jaldhar Vyas (written for for "sarge" obviously) and the other is The Debian System: Concepts and Techniques by Martin Krafft, who is a Debian developer, I believe, and published in 2005 with references to how things would work in "etch," but not always accurate, given the fact that "etch" was not released until 2007, I believe. As I have stated, no book on Debian "etch" has been published, and my theory is that publishers preferred to focus on books about Ubuntu, given the Ubuntu's popularity and, therefore, the likelihood of selling more titles, rather than publishing books on Debian "etch," which is, of course, the basis for Ubuntu and several other distributions.)
I was never able to install the 'msttcorefonts' package via Synaptic, but perhaps simply using 'apt-get' will work. I got an error, which I saved to my home director and then to a floppy disk. If I recall correctly, the package was a dependency for another package.
I really need to get my computing room cleaned up so that I can get my two Pentium-4 computers connected to my Ethernet router (which is also a switch and firewall), for obvious reasons. For example, I know that Iceweasel/Firefox is now at version 2.0.0.13, but the version on my set of three Debian (4.0r3) DVD installation discs includes Iceweasel 2.0.0.12; plus there are the problems of not having an on-line repository in my sources list, because the computer was off-line during installation (and networking and DHCP were not set up) and the more serious issue of having the Debian security source URLs commented out in my sources list.
Incidentally, when I installed the 75-DPI and 100-DPI xfonts via Synaptic, the xorg log indicated that the installation location was invalid and installed the fonts in another path. Perhaps the xfonts patch is for XFree86 and not X.org, but I am simply guessing. :confused: Perhaps the path used by Synaptic for the 'msttcorefonts' is also for XFree86 and no X.org. (I am speculating, yet again, because the problem may lie with "user error" -- i.e., me!)
Note: I never assume, when something goes awry with Linux, especially the respected, stable, and "security-by-design" Debian GNU/Linux distribution, that I have found a bug. I do assume that I made an error. For example, I initially configured Synaptic to regard recommended packages with the "Depends" status, so that Synaptic installs them automatically, which I suspect is a mistake, if for no other reason than I am complication Debian, and the more that one installs, of course, the more opportunities one creates for security vulnerabilities and the more difficult it is to keep track of what one has installed and, just as importantly, why.
I am glad that no one has misinterpreted my query as an insult to Gnome, but the look, feel, and behavior of Gnome simply are not my preference. I would like to try running a "pure" XFCE4 desktop (ideally, augmented by the 'xfce-goodies' package), but given the sparsity of documentation for XFCE, I may have not determined that XFCE needs parts of Gnome and is not as "independent" as I had assumed, although XFCE does give you the option of not loading of any Gnome or KDE packages (in sessions after one's initial configuration of XFCE) via the two check boxes.
Finally, folkert, are you able to single-click items in XFCE? I have set that preference, but it does not seem to work.
In addition, I am unable to "lasso" (select multiple items via the mouse cursor) icons on the desktop to delete or move them. I have never encounter a desktop environment that lacks this ability. Are you able, folkert, to select multiple items on your desktop using the mouse?
If I am unable to get XFCE to install with it depending on Gnome (although I realizes it needs GTK libraries) and I cannot single-click the mouse to activate items or select multiple items via the mouse's cursor, I will either reinstall Debian "etch" using the 'kde-desktop' task or I will go back to trying to use a window manager, and I have an affinity for XVWM, although it takes me ages to configure it correctly and to my liking.
If I use KDE or a window manager, I want to use the 'dolphin' Debian package as my file manager. I have not yet figured out how, assuming it is possible, to get KDE 3.X that "etch" uses to substitute dolphin for Koqueror as the file manager, and I realize that if Debian moves to KDE 4.X that dolphin is the default file manager -- and I will also have to figure out how to use dolphin with FVWM or any other window manager I may use if I end up not using a desktop environment, and even XFCE is getting a bit to "bloated" for my taste.
Although my faster Pentium-4 machine, the Dell, has the resources -- including 4-MB of RAM -- to install multiple desktop environments and file managers, so that I can specify one at login, I want to keep the interface and file manager that "sit on top of" X.org as simple and straightforward as possible, to avoid conflicts, complexity, security risks, and confusion caused by installing too many packages, particularly libraries whose names may not immediately indicate their purpose.
Thank you, again, folkert, for your response! (I also thank you for taking the time to read this long message.) :)
Cordially,
David
P.S. -- I am still hoping to install and run only free and open-source software on Debian, but I am having major problems with my 512-MB NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT (8x AGP) video card. I have been searching for on-line documentation for the X.org free 'nv' driver and how to configure it, but when I search for NVIDIA cards and Linux, via Google/Linux or other methods, I end up with instructions on installing NVIDIA's binary, proprietary, video-card driver. I really don't want to "muck up" the Debian kernel with a closed-source, "binary blob," although I appreciate NVIDIA supporting Linux and perhaps I can set up a custom kernel using NVIDIA's driver and add it to 'menu.lst', which would allow me to keep a "clean" kernel.
My 512-MB NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT video card, combined with the proprietary Dell hardware that I am unable to remove, make this Dell Dimension 8300 very frustrating, but I am pleasantly surprised that the case is not overheating.
I need to continue my search, however, to try to get the free, open-source 'nv' driver to work. I know that the information is available on JustLinux.com or the Web, but I simply have not found the instructions I need. (Perhaps I am getting senile, because I used to have much better luck finding such information!) :o
folkert
03-31-2008, 01:41 PM
I dont remember if/why it was necessary, but from man apt-get:
--ignore-hold
Ignore package Holds; This causes apt-get to ignore a hold placed
on a package. This may be useful in conjunction with dist-upgrade
to override a large number of undesired holds. Configuration Item:
APT::Ignore-Hold.
I was never able to install the 'msttcorefonts' package via Synaptic, but perhaps simply using 'apt-get' will work. I got an error, which I saved to my home director and then to a floppy disk. If I recall correctly, the package was a dependency for another package.
maybe you need non-free stuff, did you modify sources.list? Or didn't you had internet, then I don't know if you can get any non-free stuff
are you able to single-click items in XFCE?
Do you mean in thunar? yes I can
if you mean icons on the desktop, I wouldn't know where to look, never tried to set it.
I am unable to "lasso"
no, I can't
including 4-MB of RAM
Wow :-)
Thank you, again, folkert, for your response! (I also thank you for taking the time to read this long message.)
Lucky my beer didn't ran out.
good luck,
Folkert
DavidMD
03-31-2008, 02:08 PM
Hi, Dan!
Thank you for the warm welcome, your kind concern for my ongoing health issue, and your response! :)
DavidMD
Welcome back!
I've never installed Xfce from source, you should be able to log into a terminal as root and type apt-get install xfce4-session and it should prompt you for the system binary disk. When you installed Debian did you use the 3dvd set for the repository? If so you shouldn't have to worry about connecting to the internet as you have everything you need.
Again you could try using apt-get or aptitude to install Firestarter, if apt hangs try using it with the -f option, man apt-get for more info.
NOTE: apt has a bug, I run into it every now and then, the -f option will most of the time fix a broken install. If the install fails type apt-get -f install (I think) it's been awhile that I've had apt fail.
Dan
Thank you, Dan, for the suggestion to use 'apt-get' or 'aptitude'. I tried using the latter but parts of the aptitude screen, especially the top portion, have garbled text and upper-ASCII characters that (a) should not be there and (b) aptitude cannot interpret.
I am guessing that Debian's probe of my hardware and the resulting "vanilla" xorg.conf file, plus Debian's failure to recognize my NVIDIA video card, my Sun keyboard (and a Type-7 keyboard and mouse arrived today, after I let an on-line vendor know that I was very unhappy that I was very displeased with the refurbished Type-6 keyboard I received that was supposed to have the UNIX layout, but had a Windows layout -- and I have actually gotten used to the UNIX layout and kept hitting 'Caps Lock' because it is located where 'Control' should be with a UNIX layout), and HP three button (no scroll-wheel/"*NIX) mouse.
(The HP "Linux" mouse shows up in xorg.conf as a standard Microsoft PS/2 mouse, and both the Sun keyboard and HP mouse are USB, but the mouse seems to work fine, although it seems odd to see a true three-button mouse listed in xorg.conf with the option of "Yes" to emulate a three-button mouse, because my mind gets in a circular loop, trying to understand why a three-button Linux/UNIX mouse should emulate itself.) ;)
Aside: Of course, almost four years ago, I mentioned my inability to find an optical three-button, non-scroll-wheel mouse -- because I was tired of cleaning the ball in my cheap, Belkin three-button, non-scroll-wheel mouse -- the thread went on for days and became huge. I was not getting suggestions in the huge thread (which is still on JustLinux.com); instead, I had unintentionally made myself a target for attacks and caused confusion, anger, and harassment -- all because of a mouse scroll wheel. :rolleyes: Although I usually try to reply when someone takes the time to respond to my JustLinux threads, I unsubscribed. (I felt as if I were swimming with a huge school of starved piranhas and, to this day, I have no idea why I generated such hostility and "trolling," especially because freedom of choice is integral to the philosophy of using Linux.)
To return to the subject at hand, Dan, I did run 'apt-cdrom' to update sources.list to include the three Debian installation DVDs and Synaptic built and index. Of course, Synaptic wanted to check for updates on-line, so I had to enter 'N(o)' when it asked if it should retry (because the computer was not on-line) and 'N(o)' again so that Synaptic would not abort the installation.
I will definitely try apt-get, instead of Synaptic, to install XFCE, and thank you for telling me about the apt-get bug.
It would be much easier if Debian had a task option during installation to install an XFCE desktop (the same way it offers 'kde-desktop' to override the default Gnome desktop, but I have to try to install XFCE 4 via another means, especially if I want to see if XFCE will run without installing Gnome applications by default.
Of course, Firestarter, is a Gnome application, but it seems to be the most-recommended GUI for configuring the 2.6 kernel's IP tables firewall (although Synaptic listed an overwhelming number of desktop firewall and configuration packages for Debian).
As you can see, Dan, from my previous response, I have two issues with XFCE 4: I select the option to single-click instead of double-click (the KDE and UNIX default behavior) but the option does not work for me. Second, I cannot "lasso" multiple icons to select them at one time for deletion, copying, or moving. I find this second problem frustrating, because every operating system with a GUI that I've ever used (even the GUI I used on my 64k Commodore-64) has provided this "lasso" function.
I will follow your instructions, Dan, and I'll have to run 'apt-cdrom' again, and let everyone know what happens.
I would prefer to use at least XFCE 4.4, which I believe is the most current version, but the Debian installation DVDs include a late 4.3X version, and I don't know if the package maintainer plans to upgrade the "etch" package to XFCE 4.4. (Perhaps "lenny" will include XFCE 4.4.)
If I am able to get a "pure" XFCE 4 desktop and install the other packages I need, if I still have the above-mentioned problems, I will either have to use KDE, which I like but prefer less "bloat" or I will have to use a window manager and file manager.
I had high hopes for Window Maker or Afterstep, but the configuration tools provided limited and unpleasing colors and fonts, which also changed my custom colors in KDE for some odd reason.
I installed the two packages for LessTif, which I realize is basically dead, but LessTif does not appear as option under the sessions list when I log on. Either LessTif is too old to work properly, or I need to edit a configuration file somewhere. I actually like the old Athena/Motif/CDE windows and title bars, although the widgets for buttons, scroll bars, and other items are a bit too primitive for my taste. (Needless to say, I dislike the CDE default "salmon" color for the active window.)
FVWM has quite a bit of potential and power, but requires hours of investigation and configuration. It is not even mentioned in modern Linux books, because few people use it. I have printed all of the documentation from the FVWM.org Web site and downloaded sample 'fvwm2rc' configuration files, but people do some very aesthetically "questionable" things, rendering their shared (and often old) configuration files almost useless to me.
I could compile XFCE 4.4 from source, but if I use the Debian package, upgrades will be much smoother!
I also need to resolve my X.org issues. I will probably replace the Sun Type 7 USB keyboard with a Happy Hacking Lite 2 keyboard: (1) I have been unable to get the Sun Type 6 keyboard to work properly, although The Sun Type 7 USB keyboard and mouse that arrived today to replace the Type 6 keyboard are nice -- but limited desktop space is a real issue for me and the Happy Hacking Lite 2 is tiny. (2) I want to get the free X.org 'nv' driver to support my NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT video card to work, and be able to hook up both of my old 21-inch Trinitron-based CRT monitors to this dual-head card. Perhaps the Dell has other proprietary hardware that is "throwing" X.org or Debian's hardware probing tools, which can tell only that the card is made by NVIDIA and its PCI bus location via 'lspci'.
I really do want to stick with Debian and to try to use only free, open-source software, but time will tell -- and I certainly respect others who use non-free or closed-source software with Linux. (It was hard for me to decide to drop SuSE Linux, but Novell's agreement with Microsoft posed a personal ethical problem for me -- especially since I have wiped Windows XP Professional off the computer I built myself and have no plans to install Windows again on my own computers. This ethical issue, again, was a personal one, and I respect everyone's right to choose.)
Thanks, again, Dan! :)
Cordially,
David
DavidMD
03-31-2008, 10:06 PM
Hello, Folkert!
Thank you for letting me know that you can single-click with your mouse in Thunar. Based upon my experience, XFCE 4 requires double-clicking on the desktop, which is a major drawback for me and wanting to use XFCE 4.
Given the fact that single-clicking is the default behavior for UNIX GUIs, I wonder if I can write a 'bash' shell script or hack XFCE 4 in some other way, in order to single-click desktop icons? :confused:
Thank you, also, Folkert, for confirming that "lassoing" icons in XFCE 4 is not possible. Your experience corresponds precisely with mine. Again, this lack of functionality is a major drawback to XFCE 4 to me. :(
Although I deeply appreciate all hours (and years) of the volunteer development work that have gone into, and will continue to go into, XFCE, which is a great, lightweight alternative to desktop managers such as KDE and GNOME, I have become so accustomed to "lassoing" icons that this lack of functionality is a major drawback for me.
(Having done technical writing, mainly software and OS documentation, since 1985, I volunteered in 2006 to help with the documentation for XFCE; I believe that 4.4 had just been release. Andre accepted my offer and then my ongoing, chronic health problems set in and I feel guilty that I was physically unable to follow through with my offer.)
Therefore, my second question ("brainstorm"?) arises: I wonder if I can write a 'bash' or Perl script to enable "icon lassoing" in XFCE? :confused:
Perhaps the single-clicking and "lassoing" are built into X.org and there is are X utilities already written to enable these desired and -- for me -- "essential" functions.
I probably need to post a new thread in JustLinux.com about the possibility of enabling these two features in XFCE via a script, existing X.org utilities, or some other method. If anyone with the needed expertise happens to read this message, I would be deeply grateful for any suggestions.
I believe that XFCE will continue to get better and I have great respect, apprection, and admiration for the entire XFCE team, so I hope my desire for these two features is not misinterpreted as a criticism of a fine desktop environment (and I hope that Debian will use at least XFCE 4.4 for "lenny").
Thank you, yet again, Folkert, for your help, time and patience! :)
Cordially,
David
DavidMD
04-01-2008, 12:45 AM
Hello, everyone.
I have done the base installation of "Etch" from the first DVD in the three-DVD set, per your kind instructions Folkert. :D
Obviously, because the computer is temporarily not connected to the Internet, I must add each of the three DVDs to 'sources.list' and have APT read and store the index of each disc. I can then run 'apt-get' to install packages from the three DVDs.
<Begin Digression> I still hope to use free and open-source software only, but Debian and X.org have no idea what to do with my video card, and I want to use the free X.org open-source 'nv' driver, which should suit me fine if (1) it allows me to make use of the Nvidia GeForce 7300 GT's 512-MB of RAM; (2) run each monitor at its highest, ideal resolution -- and the monitor I am using for testing can run at 1152x854@75Hz, but every desktop environment I have tried shows 1024x768@75Hz in its setting menu as the maximum resolution, although 'xorg.conf' actually lists 1152x854 as one of the resolutions -- and, (3) if I can attach my two aging, reconfigured, Trinitron-based CRT monitors, one to each dual-head port on the video card, and run the each monitor at 1280x1024@75Hz (even if I cannot get Xinerama support).
Because I do not play any computer games except chess, 3-D acceleration is not really a big deal at this point (although I believe that XFree86 offered primitive 3-D acceleration, which is apparently not true of X.org) -- and I ran SuSE Linux Professional for years with a 32-MB dual-head Matrox 2-D card for years, although with just a single monitor.</End Digression>
As I say, the last two times that I added the three installation DVDs to 'sources.list', I simply ran 'apt-cdrom' with the '-a' option and I was prompted to enter each of the three DVDs, which APT indexed and placed in 'sources.list'. It was simple and the only requirement was a bit of patience while each disc was read and the packages indexed to the hard drive -- and sitting and waiting to be prompted to insert the next DVD was not exactly a technical challenge. ;)
When I performed the previous test installations, installing the default Gnome desktop and then wiping the drive clean and using the tasks option of "kde-desktop," I cannot imagine that having a desktop environment caused the installation of a needed component of APT that allowed me simply to run 'apt-cdrom -a' and index each DVD.
(I was about to state that I used Synaptic's option to add the three DVDs to 'sources.list', which is true, but I could not have run Synaptic unless I had already successfully run 'apt-cdrom', because I obviously installed Synaptic from one of the installation DVDs!)
I even tried 'apt-cdrom --thorough' ("Through Package Scan"), which -- according to the 'man' page for 'apt-cdrom' -- should be necessary solely for "Debian 1.1/1.2 discs that have Package files in strange places."
I have tried specifying the mount point and various other options I did not used the first two times I ran 'apt-cdrom' painlessly, but I now end up back at the 'apt-cdrom' help list every single time I run the command.
I know that adding each disc to 'sources.list' cannot be done manually, although the first DVD is actually in 'sources.list' (but I suspect it has not been indexed).
Folkert, I was able to install the two 'alsa' packages and run 'alsaconf', but I am now at a total standstill, and the previous time that I ran 'apt-cdrom', as described above, it worked flawlessly.
I have not tried to specify a configuration file, nor have I tried to use the "--option" option ("-o Foo::Bar=bar), because I have no arbitrary option to configure.
Am I overlooking something incredibly obvious? The 'apt-cdrom -a' command worked flawlessly the last time I used it. (In fact, I have run it twice, once when I forgot to specify the "kde-desktop" task during installation and ended up with Gnome, and again when I did specify the "kde-desktop" task in the installation command.)
Given the fact that 'apt-cdrom' is a command-line application, the fact that I had Gnome or KDE installed when I ran it twice before (via the command line, of course), I cannot see how not having a desktop installed this time should make any difference.
I would appreciate any suggestions, because every variation I try drops me back to 'apt-cdrom' help. :confused:
(I am getting a bit frustrated and, rather than continue to bang my head against a proverbial brick wall, I would be very thankful for your suggestions, because I obviously am doing something wrong, although I am running the command exactly as I did, successfully, twice before.)
Thank you, very much, in advance for your time, help, and patience! :)
Cordially,
David
teeitup
04-01-2008, 01:39 AM
Isn't the command?
$ apt-cdrom add
Using CD-ROM mount point /cdrom/
Unmounting CD-ROM
Waiting for disc...
Please insert a Disc in the drive and press enter
DavidMD
04-01-2008, 12:46 PM
Greetings, teeitup! :)
Isn't the command?
$ apt-cdrom add
Using CD-ROM mount point /cdrom/
Unmounting CD-ROM
Waiting for disc...
Please insert a Disc in the drive and press enter
Yes, teeitup, you are absolutely correct!
After I posted my previous message, I explored the 'man' pages for 'apt-cdrom' some more and realized that I needed to use 'apt-cdrom add' and not 'apt-cdrom -a'. (It was after 1:00 AM Central Time here in the United States, but I restarted the installation, per Folkert's instructions above, anyway.)
X.org did not install the Microsoft core fonts package for X, but the text scrolling past on the screen indicated that the installer was trying to access Sourceforge.net, and the computer is temporarily unable to access the Internet. (My computer room is a disaster because I have been in poor health for over a year, and I don't particularly want to run a long Ethernet cable down the hallway and into the room where the D-Link router/firewall/switch is located.)
I also received an error that the 'rar' package could not be installed and that it is possibly referenced by another program ('unrar'?) or is deprecated.
X.org displayed an error that it could not detect my optical three-button (non-scroll-wheel) USB Hewlett-Packard mouse (made for HP machines running HP's proprietary UNIX, no doubt) and that X.org did not recognize my USB Sun Type-7 (UNIX layout) keyboard.
I had the mouse connected to the keyboard's USB mouse port, so I unplugged it and plugged it into an open USB port on the back of the D(H)ell computer. I then unplugged the Sun keyboard and plugged it back into the back of the computer.
After I performed these two steps, I looked at the monitor, assuming that the "hotplug" module (or a similar USB protocol) is part of the kernel, and I was correct.
X.org identified the HP mouse, albeit as a Viewsonic mouse; perhaps Viewsonic was HP's OEM for the mouse, although I have seen many USB mice, such as an old Memorex USB mouse with lead (Pb) in the cable, identified as Viewsonic mice (with Linux and Windows XP).
X.org also displayed a message that my keyboard is a Sun Type 7 keyboard.
I reconfigured X and copy 'xorg.conf.new' as 'xorg.conf' to the '/etc/X11' directory, but 'startx' failed with several errors, including one about failure to identify or load a display at, I believe, PCI address "ending at 0:0," which may be due to the fact that my NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT (AGP 8x with 512-MB of RAMDAC) is not recognized by Debian or any "live" Linux distributions, although I noticed that X.org had loaded its 'nv' driver for NVIDIA cards.
I got the USB/UNIX Sun Type-7 keyboard and mouse kit for free (new) from an on-line vendor who had responded to my complaint that the refurbished USB Type-6 keyboard they sent me had a Windows layout, when I had ordered a UNIX layout.
If X.org can detect the Sun Type-7 keyboard, I would think that I could use one of Debian's hardware probing tools (and I have a list of the three main ones written down), although I would have to configure the Sun keyboard's special keys. (The last time that I checked, 'linkEAD' included the Sun Type-5 keyboard and listed key codes for most or all of the special keys on the left side. I don't know if the fact that the Type 5 keyboard uses a Sun computer's serial or mini-DIN-8 connector would be a problem if I tried using 'linkEAD' with a Type 7 USB keyboard; the author welcomes inquiries from people whose keyboards are not in his massive list, however.)
It is possible that I may have to give up on the Sun keyboard or use it without the special keys. I have a Happy Hacking Lite 2 keyboard (USB), which would fit my space limitations better than a full-size keyboard anyway, but based upon my reading, using the Happy Hacking Lite 2 keyboard is not a simply "plug-and-play" operation, although I do have PFU's HHK 'tar ball' that I could compile.
I know that the Happy Hacking Lite 2 keyboard is popular with Linux users, so I should be able to get it to work, but my Web searches on using a Sun keyboard with Linux have not yielded any helpful information, and most of my Web searches on using the Happy Hacking Lite 2 keyboard with Linux have contained little useful information.
I was able to get X running with no problems during my two previous installations of Debian, the first using the default Gnome desktop and the second using the "kde-desktop" task, but I still need to do research on getting my NVIDIA video card to work with Debian, because I always get errors and the monitor, though identified, is not able to run at the higher resolution that it can use -- an issue that will become even more important when I try to set up Debian to use the GeForce 7300 GT with my old, refurbished 21-inch Trinitron-based CRT monitors (one connected to each video-card head) at 1280x1024 at, ideally, 75Hz. (I start to notice flickering at the refresh rate of 70Hz and a 60-Hz refresh rate on a CRT gives me an instant, searing headache and makes me nauseous immediately.)
I should be able to find instruction on configuring X.org to use the 'nv' driver and I configured the card to use it via Debian, but X ended up not working.
The Dell Dimension 8300 has a 3.0-GHz Pentium-4 processor with hyperthreading, 4-MB of RAM, SATA-I support (although I have two SATA-II drives installed, but not connected, because I could not find SATA-I hard drives when I bought the used Dell in early 2006), and support for 8x AGP. Despite the fact that I have removed all of the proprietary hardware I can, the motherboard itself is proprietary -- made by Intel -- as are the power supply and case; I have disabled in BIOS the on-board networking, "Win-modem," and Dell SoundBlaster Live! sound -- and I am using PCI devices instead.
The PC that I built myself in 2002 has a 2.2-GHz Pentium 4 (no hyperthreading), support for IDE drives only (but more bays than the Dell), and slow RAM (2-MB of PC2100), but I know exactly what hardware is in the machine, although I do have an NVIDIA 4x AGP card with 256-MB of RAM that I'd like to use in it, instead of the 32-MB dual-head Matrox 2x AGP card. This PC, which I cannot afford to rebuild a fifth time, given my health and financial situation, will end up being a Linux-only computer anyway, after I deleted Windows XP Professional. (The computer was originally a Windows/SuSE Linux Pro dual-boot machine, but I am no longer running Windows on my own computers.)
Thank you very much for your time and help, teeitup! :)
Cordially,
David
teeitup
04-02-2008, 03:04 AM
I maintain a server for running the monitoring tools for the lab I manage.
It is running Debian and doesn't have internet connectivity.
It's currently running 4.0r2. I haven't burned the DVD with the 4.0r3 updates yet.
Managing a Debian server without internet connectivity can be a hassle. Especially if you're used to being able to apt-get anything you need.
Some packages I have had to download on another machine and transfer them via scp. "msttcorefonts" is one example, NVIDIA drivers are another.
Most of the tools running on the server are controlled by the command line and the output is displayed using a webserver. I don't have much occasion to have to log in directly.
Good Luck,
blackbelt_jones
04-02-2008, 10:20 AM
I just want to say hello to David MD, who is one of the nicest and most well-mannered sons of b****es in the entire Linux community. Nice to see that you're still around, Dave! No s**t. Some of these mother****ers in here have no manners whatsoever. I mean, it's like they were brought up in a f***ing barn or something. F***!:D
DavidMD
04-07-2008, 05:23 AM
Greetings, teeitup!
Thanks for your time and reply. :)
I maintain a server for running the monitoring tools for the lab I manage.
It is running Debian and doesn't have internet connectivity.
It's currently running 4.0r2. I haven't burned the DVD with the 4.0r3 updates yet.
Managing a Debian server without internet connectivity can be a hassle. Especially if you're used to being able to apt-get anything you need.
Some packages I have had to download on another machine and transfer them via scp. "msttcorefonts" is one example, NVIDIA drivers are another.
Most of the tools running on the server are controlled by the command line and the output is displayed using a webserver. I don't have much occasion to have to log in directly.
Good Luck,
I think that I initially tried to 'apt-get' the 'msttcorefonts' Debian package from the installation DVDs, as a recommended package, based on the steps for a basic XFCE4 system that Folkert so very kindly took the time to write for me and to post early in this thread. :)
I have not installed many packages on the system because I am battling with XFCE4 (Debian 'sid' actually has the current version, and the on-line HTML documentation for the older version of XFCE4 packaged for 'Etch' is actually a bit more recent than the documentation, so I have hit multiple "brick walls" (and I have gotten frustrated enough, because I want this experiment to succeed and because I refuse to give up on a Linux project unless the computer dies on me).
The few packages I have installed from the DVDs, however, often use 'msttcorefonts' and I saw the error scroll by on the screen just over a week ago, and I saw that 'apt-get' was trying to access Sourceforge.net. I knew that 'contrib' was in my 'sources.list', so at least solving the problem with 'msttcorefonts' was easy!
I have some problems that my on-line research has not resolved, and the XFCE.org forums have surprising little activity (and most of the questions I've seen are already answered on the XFCE Web site! :p
I've not seen the "RTFM" acronym much over the last few years, but I can remember that one reason I stopped trying to use the computer-related UseNet groups was the "signal-to-noise" ratio -- with people asking questions that a particular group's FAQ answered in detail.
(In those days, Larry Wall himself kept up with the Perl newsgroup and would answer the most difficult and challenging questions. I was a dedicated "lurker" in that group, printing out the FAQ when it was updated, as well as select discussions, including Larry Wall's posts. I probably saw "RTFM" as often as I saw the many obfuscated Perl code .sig files!)
At the risk of wasting anymore of everyone's time, I will post a short list focused on my major problems and frustrations -- and the reason my health has gotten worse over the last week or so, because I get almost no sleep at night because I am either searching the Web or trying to make modifications on the Debian installation on the PC would take a very long CAT-5E cable to reach my network's router!
I should mention that every time that I reconfigure X, I end up with a different 'xorg.conf' file. I have to back up the new version and start by adding the missing information (such as my Sun Type 7 USB keyboard, which is always probed as a generic US PC keyboard, or adding the supported resolutions of the low-quality Dell CRT that I am using for testing).
Configuring X.org is not appropriate in this thread. I will mention the obvious fact that if I want to use two-monitors on the dual-head Nvidia 7300 GT video card that I bought two years ago for this used Dell that I resurrected (and my loathing of proprietary and Windows-only hardware is now at its most intense), I must to abandon my ideal of using free and open-source software only with Debian, because Nvidia's proprietary, binary, closed-source GPU driver (which modifies the kernel itself) is the only way that I can take advantage of this 8x AGP card that has 512-MB of its own RAM, even though I don't care about 3-D acceleration.
Here are my initial major issues and/or problems, which I've spent hours researching and then trying to modify the basic Debian installation to have a stable desktop "Etch" system based on XFCE 4. At this point, I am about ready to give up on XCFE and try Fluxbox, Enlightenment, or even FVWM2 (which was the recommended window manager about seven years ago, because the ugly default configuration does not reflect the power of editing configuration files to create an environment the does exactly what you want and has no "bloat" at all)!
I used KDE for years because it was the default desktop environment for SuSE Linux Professional, which I first started using in 2002. Every release greeting me with various Konqueror/Kwin crashes and SuSE's development team in Nuremberg made certain that you could do everything from develop software to running a Web site with Apache connect to a database, before you installed a single RPM from the DVDs or a repository.
I got used to KDE and the loaded default installation was much faster than Windows XP Pro that I dual-booted on the same computer.
I tried Gnome but I could never get comfortable with it, and I have aesthetic tastes that run counter to what GTK can do, although Gnome has come a long way since I first tried it six years ago. It simply is "not a good fit" for me, and KDE is still quirky; plus, I've reached the point at which I want to use CPU cycles and RAM, although the Dell has 4-MB and KDE 3 ran with no delays on a Pentium-III-based IBM NetVista (with 512-MB of RAM) that I was given early this year for a separate project, and the box had PCLinuxOS preinstalled with a KDE theme that resembled a jet-black glossy Vista interface. I realize that PCLinuxOS is popular, and I did "push" the Pentium-III, but KDE and multiple applications ran with almost no delays.
I apologize for digressing, but Linux continues to amaze me!
Here is my itemized list:
1. Although XFCE's Thunar file manager allows for single mouse clicks, which has been the way I have interacted with all GUIs for years now, I have to double-click the desktop icons, and there is a disconcerting pause before I get a response, but this Dell should be running faster, so I may have a hardware or X.org problem.
I suspect I cannot find a way to single-click desktop icons with XFCE, because of its GTK+ foundation (based upon what I have been told). I am not sure if I could find a "hack" to get this feature, but I doubt it.
2. There is no way to select multiple icons on the desktop with the mouse ("lassoing" them), which I've been able to do with every GUI I've used (if it had desktop icons).
Again, I suspect that the GTK+ libraries do not allow this functionality, although I cannot recall having the problem with Gnome.
3. Based upon my research, XFCE 4 should have a default '~.gtkrc-2.0' file, and some other configuration files that I can edit, but my installation of XFCE 4 seems to be missing some standard features.
Again, my research leads me to believe that they are part of the base XFCE 4 installation, although I received no errors and 'apt-get --fix' never indicates that it has found or repaired any packages.
4. Whenever I change a desktop wallpaper, the area behind the desktop icons' text takes on a bizarre color, depending on the colors in the wallpaper. I have discovered that the icons' text background is less garish after I shut down XFCE and restart it.
5. I need to find a way to change the border area (buffer) around the desktop icons. This monitor is at 1152x864 and the out icons are close to two inches from the edge of the screen, and I have a second virtual desktop but dragging is disabled between the two, so I am wasting a great deal of icon space.
6. I am not sure what package or packages caused this next issue, but I have a considerable number of KDE and Gnome directories and files. I guess I need to determine which packages needed these directors and files, although I realize I cannot run XFCE without seeing references to Gnome.
7. I installed Iceweasel/Firefox as my Web browser and Sylpheed-Claws (although I like Thunderbird/Icedove, but it lacked Unicode support for some time, but I need to send a message in Russian/Cyrillic or in German with lots of special characters to someone with Thunderbird -- because I believe Thunderbird now supports more than English ASCII characters.
Although I strongly prefer sending or receiving text e-mail (which was the only option when I first started exchanging e-mail, but is now another way to waste bandwidth with fonts and formatting, and a security risk to people who have e-mail clients that lack the filtering of Thunderbird), I occasionally need to use non-English text.
When Sylpheed was mature, it appealed immediately to me, and it was UTF-8 compliant in its alpha releases. Sylpheed-Claws was a fork that offered more features, but the program is now called Claws, so the version with "Etch" is either rather old or they left the name of the original forked version.
When I first launched Sylpheed-Claws I was immediately shocked by how ugly the widgets and buttons were. I assume that it is based on GTK+, but it did not integrate into the XFCE interface as Iceweasel/Firefox did.
I have no idea if this problem is one that I can solve or a glitch with Sylpheed-Claws' code or implementation of GTK's widgets, but I cannot bear to look at it, let alone use it.
8. Although the KDE and Gnome developers have tried to make software written for their respective environments integrate into the other's desktop environment, XFCE is relatively young, but I have had the issue above before with it. (I had a similar problem using a GNOME utility with FVWM2, and Gnome was actually installed, but the Gnome search application did not remotely resemble any of my Gnome themes; perhaps that problem was cause by FVWM's limited color support.)
9. I have printed out tweaks for '~.gtkrc-2.0' to make the background behind XFCE's desktop icons basically transparent, as well as achieve other effects, but I misplaced my printouts, so I will search the Web, yet some more -- as well as this site -- and ask any questions if I encounter problems...as soon as I determine why I have no '~.gtkrc-2.0' to edit! ;)
I will not abuse your patience more with additional questions, and I will learn more about XFCE 4 -- but I must admit that the issues with the XFCE desktop (clicking icons and selecting multiple ones with the mouse) actually concern me a great deal, because these computer work habits are so ingrained that I don't feel that XFCE 4 is worth such forced change -- and I obviously have other concerns. (I realize XFCE will get better with time, but I am looking for a viable alternative to KDE and Gnome that I can use now.)
Thank you very much for your time, patience, and suggestions!
Cordially,
David
DavidMD
04-07-2008, 05:45 AM
Hello, blackbelt_jones!
I just want to say hello to DavidMD, who is one of the nicest and most well-mannered sons of b****es in the entire Linux community....:D
Thank you for your warm greetings and too-kind words! :)
I truly like people and I try to be friendly and polite, because I have only my words to communicate in this forum (and silly "emoticons").
Plus, although every step forward I take with Linux (and my journey started in 2002, although I used proprietary VAX and Sun UNIX via a command line only, starting in 1989 -- and I mostly used the 'telnet' command and a dial-up modem. I was lucky in those days to keep a connection over rural phone lines, and -- although security would not have been a huge issue -- I doubt that a remote X session is possible over a dial-up connection! :D
After using VAX and Sun OS (before it got its fancy Solaris rebranding) UNIX for five years, I finally saw Mosaic running on a large, color Sun terminal. I realized that at least one GUI was available for Sun OS (CDE) and I learned about Motif -- but my first glimpse of the salmon-pink active window in CDE was a bit of a shock, and I was content to stay with the command line!
I was volunteering for a nonprofit 3,000 miles away when I first started using UNIX (Sun OS) and was terrified when I was given full administrative rights, because I was creating Gopher and Web sites and other content for the nonprofit; plus, I was providing technical support to Mac and Windows users.
Still, I was a complete UNIX neophyte/"newbie" and it was ironic to get O'Reilly's book of UNIX commands and O'Reilly's first book on 'vi' during the same week that I knew that I could accidentally and seriously mess up a UNIX system if I was not extremely careful.
I had no idea that I would be using and loving Linux in 2002, nor that I would be able to run the free and open-source kernel and GNU software on my own computer! Plus, the hours I spent learning 'vi' in 1989 have certainly come in handy!
Thanks, again, blackbelt! :)
Cordially,
David
folkert
04-07-2008, 01:27 PM
a basic XFCE4 system that Folkert so very kindly took the time to write for me
To be truly honest, I wrote it for myself, and copied it for you. :-)
DavidMD
04-08-2008, 12:38 AM
Hello, Folkert!
To be truly honest, I wrote it for myself, and copied it for you. :-)
Thank you for your message, and I am very grateful to you for sharing that list.
Did you have a '~./gtkrc-2...' file in your 'home' directory, I assume within the './config' directory, after you installed XFCE4?
I have spent hours searching the Web and either I have not used the needed terms or words or my lack of this file, which I assume is installed for Gnome or any GTK-based environment, or I the problem is so rare that it I cannot find any mention of it.
Even if the configuration file was not supposed to be installed by default, I assume that when I used XFCE's configuration applet that many or most of my settings in the configuration tool would have generated the 'gtkrc' configuration file. (I do have some XML files that include what are obvious my settings, but I do not know the specifications of the 'mcs' DTD, so I hesitate to modify the XML files, especially when I assumed I would find a default 'gtkrc' file in my home directory and that I would modify it when I customized my settings.
I did more research today, but gave up after several fruitless hours.
I still need to get my keyboard recognized and working by editing 'xorg.conf', and every time that I run Debian's command to reconfigure X, I end up with a slightly different 'xorg.conf' file. I have to edit it, because so many settings are wrong.
By checking the X log file, I can see that some of the errors with the section of options that immediately follows the first section of font paths (some of which are incorrect, but the Debian tool is "smart" enough to put the correct paths in 'xorg.conf').
As you may know, these options primarily deal with the protocols used by the video card and also with the installed fonts.
I have written down a few Debian packages, such as 'xfce4-session' (although I think it is listed as a "Similar Package" and not a dependency), to make sure a component of XFCE4 was not installed properly by APT, but I received no errors when I installed XFCE4. Perhaps I need to move the entire computer system close enough to the router to connect to a Debian repository. I know that Iceweasel/Firefox needs updating from '.12 to '.13', for example, and the MS core fonts package will not get installed until I am on-line.
I have not yet configured the network settings, however, nor have I configured the IP tables so that Debian has at least a basic firewall. (I also have no idea where I will put the computer system in the room where the router is, and I've been physically weak because of the prolonged illness.)
It is odd that the XFCE 4 Debian package maintainer still has 'xfwm4' listed for "Etch," because Thunar has replaced it. I actually tried to install 'xfwm4' after installing XFCE 4 and APT displayed an error that it was deprecated, because Thunar was the file manager.
I also either failed to install HAL, or it is not in the correct location (or I failed to perform post-installation tasks), because I come across an error that HAL is not installed.
Installing XFCE 4 did place it in the start-up file for X, which was the case with the KDE and Gnome desktop environments, but I need to make the two buttons active and functional -- the ones that that appear to the right of "Shutdown" (or the equivalent) button on the panel that appears after I click the shutdown icon in the panel.
Of course, the fact that those two buttons are inactive indicates that I need to edit some of X's files, because shutting down should terminate the XFCE session, then X, and power down the computer. Instead, I exit XFCE and X terminates, but I am back at the text-based login prompt, so I have to perform a double "Vulcan neck pinch" ;) and hit CONTROL-ALT-BACKSPACE and then CONTROL-ALT-DELETE -- at which point Debian starts killing XFCE processes and then X itself.
These problems are the result of user error (me!), because I had planned to install 'xdm', in my apparently unattainable effort to install only the GTK+ files and libraries needed by XFCE 4, so I did not install 'gdm', nor did I install 'kdm'. (At the time, I suspected installing the former would require GNOME as a dependency, although 'gdm' is obviously dependent on GTK+, and I had the same ignorant concern about 'kdm', although it depends on the QT library and not the entire KDE environment.) I forgot to install 'xdm' or perhaps I need to edit some files to get it to appear as the login screen.
After I enter my user name and password, I have to type 'startx' to run XFCE, and perhaps I am launching TWO X sessions?
I have several Gnome and KDE directories and libraries, although the only software I have installed besides the basic items in your list are 'Iceweasel/Firefox' and 'Sylpheed-Claws'. Perhaps the browser uses QT and the e-mail client uses GTK.
I do know for certain that 'Iceweasel/Firefox' uses my default XFCE 4 theme and style, but that 'Sylpheed-Claws' (which was renamed 'Claws Mail' at least a year ago) looks horrible, looking like an application built with GTK and using the most basic, primitive widgets with no style applied. It is so ugly and looks completely out of place with XFCE, which is themed, despite my other problems, that I close it down as soon as I open it (simply to configure it, because it is of no use without a connection to the Internet or Debian's network settings not yet configured).
I have read in several places that much effort has gone into making sure that Gnome and KDE applications integrate as seamlessly as possible into the other environment -- which I believe is one of the goals of the Free Desktop Standards -- but either XFCE (which is a bit too "Gnome-like" for me, simply because I cannot be productive in Gnome, nor is it the right "fit" for me) has not yet matured enough to "play well" with Gnome and KDE, and I have not installed some of the GNU/X.org programs (such as Xbiff or Xload) that I often use, although Gnome and KDE are designed to integrate X programs well.
Of course, I am using the X Screen Savers, but they have no widgets or GUIs and I configured the one I have used for years, because my first Linux system had a 2-D video card and the X.org 'nv' driver provides no 3-D support, but this screen saver runs as well on this Nvidia card with 512-MB of video RAM as it did on my 2-D Matrox card with 32-MB of RAM.
However, I need to enable the 'xscreensaver' daemon to launch automatically at startup. When I first set up my screen saver, I got an error that 'xscreensaver.d' was not running and I selected "Yes" to start it and then followed the instructions, using 'su' and the root password, that were supposed to configure it to launch automatically at the start of each X session. I no longer get the error, but unless I open the control panel tool and click on the 'Close' button (because the screen saver is still selected and configured), after 10 minutes of inactivity the monitor shuts down instead of the screen saver starting.
I could go on and on, Folkert, although this message is almost as long as the one I wrote yesterday, but I obviously have serious problems with X and XFCE, and I would like to install some basic programs, at least Emacs; Firestarter; OpenOffice.org; and an IDE or similar tools with syntax highlighting for (X)HTML, Perl, PHP, and Python (although I could use Emacs as an IDE, e-mail client, and GNUChess interface...and more).
It is important, however, that I take care of these many loose threads, install at least one set of icons besides the oddly designed Rodent them, and try to see if I can find SOME way to single-click desktop icons and "lasso" multiple desktop icons with the mouse cursor to select them. One reason I did not use Gnome for long is because I had to double-click the mouse all of the time (which I have not done in years), although I believe I could "lasso" desktop icons to rearrange them or do whatever I wanted.
KDE uses the UNIX default of single-clicking, instead of double-clicking, but perhaps GTK lacks the libraries to offer this option on the Gnome and XFCE desktops, although single-clicking does work in Thunar for me. (I could map X to interpret two clicks of the left mouse button as one, but it is not worth the disastrous consequences that would occur if I were doing anything but opening a desktop icon!) :p
I need to get X and XFCE stable and then I can worry about single-mouse clicks and the major issue of having installed programs appear repulsive and primitive. (I could try enable preloading Gnome and KDE applications, but I run programs such as the GUI frontend to 'dbg' that use Athena widgets or some other Motif-like bare-bones components (resembling CDE or the FVWM2 default), but with other desktop environments or window managers, the title bars and their widgets have always been from the them I was using. Perhaps I am missing a crucial package, it is corrupted, or I have to perform a task manually that has occurred automatically in the past.
Although I used KDE for many years, each version suffered from random crashes by programs or Konqueror itself (in its dual-role of Web browser and file manager, although I know 'dolphin' is the new file manager for KDE 4). Given the random nature of these crashes, I had no idea of there was a problem with the RPMs I had installed, the way the distribution had implemented KDE -- but, despite KDE's many features, it has never been stable for me in a span of six years, and it gets more bloated and the default theme and icons seem more cartoonish and oddly shaped with each release.
I am hoping that I can fix the many problems I have -- and I always assume that I am the cause, even in this situation when almost everything seems broken or missing -- because I want to give XFCE a chance. I guess that I should begin with X.org, although I see components of XFree86 in Debian "Etch", not to mention that X has never been thoroughly documented, and my newest Linux books refer to XFree86 only, as does most of the information I find on the Web. The differences should be subtle, but "Etch" is Debian's transition into X.org from XFree86 and I know that some transitional packages are on my first installation of Debian, and people who upgraded from "Sarge" or earlier versions apparently have all kinds of transitional packages.
I also wonder how XFCE would be running if I had the most current update of Version 4.4, which is part of 'sid', so the version of XFCE 4 in the final release of testing/"Lenny" will be out of date, and by the time "sid" becomes "testing," I hope that XFCE won't still be at 4.4, but then major XFCE releases take quite a bit of time. I remember checking xfce.org every week when 4.4 was about to be released, because it had new features and the interface was the most appealing one yet; even the XFCE 4.4 wallpapers were more interesting -- and I have always liked the XFCE "mouse" logo -- which has a "warm, fuzzy" appeal that KDE's gears and Gnome's footprint lack. (I don't every recall seeing a child hugging a plush gear or foot; plush animals are typical.)
(Despite having a 3.0-GHz Pentium-4, SATA hard drives, and 4-MB of RAM, I have to admit that I have been reading up on fluxbox and looking at Enlightenment themes, given the aesthetic oddity of the default themes, but -- especially if I abandon my unrealistic, open-source ideal for Debian -- and install Nvidia's binary driver for this video card, and I cannot use two monitors with the card with the free, open-source 'nv' driver, I can certainly handle a desktop environment, although I do not like Gnome and KDE has been less than ideal. I also do have problems with Linux and the proprietary Dell hardware in a heat-retaining case, and I have removed every piece of proprietary I can; perhaps I can find a compatible Intel motherboard, better PSU, and a cooler case -- but this machine was made in 2004 and a compatible motherboard that supports 4-MB of RAM will be rare or used. If I had any money to spend on hardware, however, I'd rebuild my self-built system for the fifth time; quad-core 64-bit processors are actually less now than my 32-bit, 2.2-GHz Pentium-4, without hyper-threading, cost me in 2002!)
Well, Folkert, I am obviously worn out and rambling -- and I know that your patience is exhausted, so I will stop writing. Being ill for over a year and getting little sleep because of vivid nightmares for ten months hardly make me as alert and lucid as I'd like, but switching to Debian GNU/Linux after six years and having all of this problems with X.org and XFCE do give me an intellectual challenge, although my constant research and testing are spawning even more questions -- and I have already been an imposing pest who becomes more irritating with each new post in this thread! :o
Thank you for your time, patience, and help! :)
Cordially,
David
folkert
04-08-2008, 03:46 PM
Did you have a '~./gtkrc-2...' file in your 'home' directory, I assume within the './config' directory, after you installed XFCE4?
me@home:~$ find | grep gtk
./.config/gtk-2.0
./.config/gtk-2.0/gtkfilechooser.ini
./.config/xfce4/mcs_settings/gtk.xml
me@home:~$
so i guess: no
After I enter my user name and password, I have to type 'startx' to run XFCE
I added startx to the end of .bash_profile in my home dir
Thank you for your time, patience, and help!
your welcome, sorry I couldn't be more of a help. You wrote about more problems than I could understand, let alone solve.
DavidMD
04-09-2008, 01:05 PM
Greetings, Folkert! :)
As always, I appreciate your time, help, efforts, and your concern about my problems (many of which I know are self-inflicted). ;) I feel as if we have gone beyond total strangers and are now truly interested in each other's personal welfare -- which is one of the aspects of JustLinux that is, to me, more important than members' efforts to help each other with Linux. :D
I hope that all is well and that you are having a nice evening (given the time difference between our different locations, which I believe is either seven or eight hours)!
so i guess: no
Thank you for taking the time to check for me, Folkert! I will have to check, but, based upon my sieve-like memory, I believe that my 'home' directory contains multiple XML configuration files in the 'xfce4' sub-directory but that I have no 'gtk-2.0' subdirectory. Instead, either I have subdirectories containing subdirectories containing XML files for various components that would be in your 'gtk-2.0' subdirectory, or my GTK 2.0 settings are XML files in subdirectories for each GTK component.
I added startx to the end of .bash_profile in my home dir
Thank you for the information, Folkert. Obviously, 'startxfce4' is in my initialization file for X, but after I log in via the command line, X does not "know" that it should start, but after I log in and type 'startx', X launches another session with XFce4 as its desktop environment.
(Aside: Someone who has posted almost 700 messages in the XFce forums on the XFce Web site has as his '.sig' file the statement that "XFCE4 is not an acronym and means nothing -- although I believe the FAQ may state otherwise -- and that the proper appellation is "XFce4." If he is correct, I must look like a total neophyte/"newbie" by typing "XFCE 4"!) :)
Regarding starting an X session, Folkert, I have not yet determined why the Xscreensaver daemon ('xscreensaverd') does not automatically start when X does. If I can locate the screen saver daemon's file, I can include it in X's startup configuration. I got an error that the daemon was not running when I first selected my screen saver and followed its instructions to have the daemon run when X starts, but the Xscreensaver daemon still fails to start, although I at least stopped the error from appearing. ;) I did write the error down and save it as a text file with Mousepad in my 'home' directory, so I can share it on JustLinux if I cannot find a way to start the Xscreensaver daemon. I assume that, because I have XFce automatically save sessions when I exit, although I end back at the text-based login prompt and have to kill X twice and, it appears, some XFce daemon processes -- only to have the computer restart and not shut down, forcing me to hold down the power button to shut off the computer.
I have so many problems that probably are solely with X.org that, in combination with my problems with XFce4, I do not know where to start; plus, I realize that many of the problems are related, because XFce4 obviously requires X to run, and to be configured correctly.
your welcome, sorry I couldn't be more of a help. You wrote about more problems than I could understand, let alone solve.
Folkert, you owe me no apologies! I am very grateful to you for taking the time to read my "lists of woes" and for every bit of help that you have provided. The fact that you genuinely care means a great deal to me, Folkert, and helps motivate me to face challenges that overwhelm me. I have seen enough XFce4-related discussions in the hours (which add up to days and days) I continue to spend searching the Web with Google/Linux to know that there are people who have minor problems with XFce, often people new to Linux who are using Xubuntu, and they give up on XFce after making nasty comments about it.
When I first learned about XFce and realized that versions 4.2 and 4.4 each would resolve major issues and add new features, such as a file manager (Thunar), I literally checked XFce.org at least twice a week to see if the final releases were out and how smoothly they ran for "early adopters," who probably had been running beta and release-candidate versions anyway.
At one point on the XFce.org Web site, perhaps on the FAQ page, in response to a final question about why XFce lacks certain features or what the release schedule for XFce is, Olivier Fourdan himself, I presume -- who must be frustrated and irritated by lazy or demanding users, reminds people that XFce has always been developed and tested by volunteers, and that if someone wanted to donate the funds to the project so that he could hire one single full-time developer, XFce would be able to fix bugs (and all software has bugs), provide requested features (as long as GTK provides the ability to add those features), and possibly even have a release date.
I think some whining XFce users need to be reminded that everyone working on XFce is a dedicated volunteer -- and, as someone who has donated several thousand hours to nonprofit organizations, I know too well that working for free will not even buy you groceries, although it is gratifying to be able to do anything to make the world a bit better -- and that people all over the world benefit from XFce, but that -- just like Debian GNU/Linux itself, and almost all open-source projects -- XFce is the result of people all over the world spending untold hours working for free on the project (and those volunteers are sacrificing untold hours to volunteer, and have to spend most of their time working at paid jobs so that they can eat, have a place to live, cover expenses, and afford to have computers and Internet connections in order to work for free on XFce).
If I am too mentally deficient to run a Debian GNU/Linux system with an XFce 4 desktop, I would be rude, ignorant, and cruel to blame the dedicated XFce team of volunteers. I have been using Linux since 2002, which I realize is nothing compared to people who have used Linux when the kernel was not yet at version 1.0, many of whom have also worked on the GNU software that has made the word Linux synonymous with a robust, secure, stable, full-feature, powerful, customizable, and totally free, complete and open-source operating system.
Switching from Novell's openSUSE to Debian GNU/Linux and, at the same time, switching from KDE to XFce (which is new to me) -- after giving Gnome another try -- means that I am making major and multiple adjustments, encounter problems I never had with SuSE, and adapt to "Etch" moving to X.org, (and also providing transitional packages for people upgrading from "Sarge" and earlier versions), and feeling overwhelmed by constant deluges of problems or unfamiliar Debian features (which I like, and I also prefer Debian's packaging system over RPMs -- in addition to admiring the Debian Social Contract and philosophy).
The fact that you are taking your valuable free time to read my long litanies of problems, Folkert, means very much to me. Plus, I am deeply grateful for every single suggestion you offer -- and I have always been thankful for any advice I get on JustLinux!
Idea to Make GTK/Gnome Programs Not Look Horrible in XFce: Finally, Folkert, in reference to my problem with even GTK-based programs, such as Synaptic and Sylpheed-Claws (which became a totally self-contained fork of Sylpheed in 2005 and is now Claws-Mail at version 3.0.3, so Debian's Sylpheed-Claws is actually a dead project and I need to install Claws-Mail and its great plug-ins from Debian "Lenny" or from source -- or probably use Thunderbird, although I have one friend who loves Mutt and another, who is my age, who will use Pine only), I think that the reason all GTK-based programs look so hideous and primitive is that they come from Gnome and I need to have a 'gtkrc' file, as Gnome does, so that these GTK/Gnome programs will use my Xfce themes, just as they would use the theme settings in 'gtkrc' under Gnome.
I need to figure out how to create a 'gtkrc' file for XFce. In addition, I may need to find a Gnome theme that I like (and I am happy with my theme in XFce, which may be included with Gnome...but I am not running Gnome) to to all I can to make the GTK/Gnome programs integrate with the appearance of XFce.
Does this idea make any sense, or is this possible solution I am considering to one of my problems impossible and destined to fail? :confused:
I would appreciate feedback from anyone. (If I solve that problem, I will have to figure out what to do if I want to use a QT/KDE program so that its appearance integrates with my GTK/Xfce desktop!) :eek:
Perhaps this idea is the result of desperation, but if it is not totally stupid and simply will not work, then there must be other alternatives! :D
Thank you, again, Folkert!
Cordially,
David
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