Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Geeks and Idiots (Google searches)


blackbelt_jones
06-04-2007, 05:21 PM
This is quoted from another forum.

(Except that some us seem to equate "ordinary user" with "moron".)


I guess I somewhat fall in this category haha... Problem I see regularly (in RL, not so much on forums), are there are three types of users that ask me questions regardless of platform.

1) Moron - This just so happens to be the vast majority, but seriously... it's the type of questions that I end up responding "You have it plugged in, right?".

2) Moron #2 - Not quite as plentiful as the above, but still numerous occurrences. Basically this is the guy that knows one or two acronyms and then thinks he is an engineer but really has no relevant knowledge portrayed in his question. "I couldn't get my DVD burner to work. You think it’s because I changed my Front Side Bus (FSB) speed?"

3) Enlightened User - I can count these on my hands, but always a pleasure to help. They generally try to solve the problem on their own first using google or whichever is their preferred way to gather information. Upon being unable to solve the problem, ask me detailed questions giving what they have tried already. If only the world could fall into this category... "I can't get my sound card to work. I installed the proper module and xmms to test the card. Xmms complains about unable to open /dev/dsp." Answer: Put user in group Audio to have permissions for /dev/dsp and /dev/mixer.

I'd say the percentages I see of the above in real life are 60%, 30%, 10%. Your mileage may vary.

As one who came to Linux with a barely workable knowledge of the Windows Desktop, I know what it feels like to be the idiot, and I'm fairly certain that the cultural gap between the geek and the idiot costs Linux a lot more than any of real or perceived gaps in the technology. Nobody wants to learn something when learning it makes you feel like an idiot. I've had the experience of someone treating me like a moron who wasn't willing to do his homework after I had literally spent my entire day off trying to solve a problem. I had interpreted an error message to mean that I could fix my sound card problem with Woody if I installed a new kernel, and I carefully studied and compiled and installed a new kernel... and it didn't help. I had been working on it for nine or ten hours, and when I was openly mocked in the Debian chatroom, for not knowing about modprope, I was mad!

One thing that I remember from the bad old days is that finding things on Google isn't always as easy as it ought to be. I can remember trying to find out how to login at the console so I could install my nvidia driver, and not being able to think of a search other than "console login" which produced nothing I could use. If I had known a little more, I might have thought to do a search for "disable X", which probably would have been a lot more productive.

I'd like to suggest that, sometimes, in the chatrooms and in the forums, it's appropriate that we ask and answer questions in terms of google searches. So if you're clueless, and you can't find what you're looking for with a google search, you could ask a question like: "Would you suggest a google search that I could do to find the answer to my problem with my soundcard?"

And to the geek who ministers to idiots like me, instead of saying something cutting like "It's called 'Google'!", :mad: it's almost as easy and often far more productive to say something like "Why don't you try a google search for 'modprobe'?" :) (If the Idiot still wants you to explain things to him in detail, without doing the search, well, obviously, f**k him, he's an idiot!) :p

As I see it, the advantages to this approach are several:

The Geek can give the idiot access to a great deal of information without much effort. The Geek can also help the idiot to learn how to use Google, which is usually the point of mocking him.

In framing the question in terms of search term, the Idiot is demonstrating a consideration for the volunteer who is attempting to answer his question, a willingness to do the effort of finding the information, and in fact, is more likely to learn the knack of finding information sooner this way. It's when you can find what you need to know (not necessarily when you know it) that you cease to be an Idiot. At least that's how it was for me.

loopback48
06-05-2007, 09:39 AM
I can remember trying to find out how to login at the console so I could install my nvidia driver, and not being able to think of a search other than "console login" which produced nothing I could use.

Boy, can I relate to this. Way back then is when something like "...just open a console and ..." Huh?

Yes, there are some on the Geek side who, for some reason feel elevated to god-like status. They forget what they went through.

And of course there are the newbies who don't stop to think before posting the question; 'my linux don't work'.

Ahh, Linux. Got to love it. Or hate it. I know I sometimes do both.

trilarian
06-05-2007, 11:04 AM
Lol.. my comment has been taking out of context and made into a thread entirely on it's own! :eek:

Well, if you read the qualifier "in RL, not so much on forums" you can get a little insight where I'm coming from. I don't think I've talked down to anyone on these forums, as I see it that you took the time to make a login and post your problem, then you have the desire to learn. Those last three words are the key.

In RL, I work with a lot of stupid people. I call them stupid, but really a better term would be intentional stupidity derived from laziness(I don't know how and don't care to know, just fix it). About 6 months ago, myself and a good friend started a non-profit group that teaches basic computer skills with encouragement to learn and use Linux at home. We received about 10 PCs from a local printing press that have Linux installed to have a small psuedo-classroom. We also advertise to bring in your own PC to learn how to troubleshoot the problems you are having on your own PC, as well as have an opportunity to install Linux with a more knowledgeable person present to help you along.

Long story short, we do have a few people that have came, learned something new, and made the overall experience worth continuing. However, there is a large portion of people that show up for the free tech support but are completely uninterested in learning anything or even providing useful information on symptoms to help fix their PC. It gets very frustrating when I can spend hours of my volunteer time on someone who is not even appreciative. I'd rather spend it helping someone that would like to learn^^;

Anyway, I made that comment after trying to figure out what was causing problems with one of the "I don't wanna learn anything guys" to finally find out after getting him to present all his cables that he took a pliers to the ground prong and tore it off to fit a non-grounded wall outlet.... So yea, I was feeling like people are stupid at the moment... So, if you still feel I'm an arrogant geek, so be it - not trying to impress you. There will always be people I feel are stupid, which has nothing to do with an elitist attitude. I do try to help people, but only if they want to be helped.

funnybug
06-05-2007, 11:22 AM
Boy, there's lots of ways to approach responding to this.

Let me start by saying that humans are an impatient species. It's easy just to say "how do I do this?" rather than seeking the answer on ones own. To defend the morons, if they are seeking instructions on how to do something, most probably don't know how to use a search engine as well.

This isn't a bad thing. But the person barking back "Use Google you idiot" does a lot more damage to the growth of anything, let alone Linux.

Case in point:

I'm on and searching and downloading and uploading to/from the usenet groups daily. And everyday, a newbie reaches out for a quick how to or help in some way. And almost every single request is met with a cyber slap in the face as he/she's an idiot who needs to stop wasting everyones time with stupid questions. "Go read alt.binaries.howto.spank.monkey" (sic). How would the newbie usenetter know that?

Of course, after the b!tchslapping, the newbie trying to join in the usenet experience and potentially become a reliable contributor probably just went away vowing never to bother with that anymore. So much for growing the community.

So those that know Linux, need to respond to the stupid questions civilly. Unfortunately, many who gain knowledge become arrogant and self absorbed in what they know... not wanting to give up the intellectual edge they have, because they are Linux smarter.. therefore, they are better.

Those stupid moronic silly questions should be looked at as a market indicator for the growth of the Linux world. The more stupid questions there are, means more people are exploring Linux.

Not everybody needs to know how a clock is made when they only want to know how to set the time.

So far, I've been lurking and looking and reading here for a few weeks. I've been impressed with the quality of responses (the itoonz sister hacker being the best so far).

I too will ask stupid questions. I promise. Just be gentle with me. :eek:

trilarian
06-05-2007, 11:47 AM
I too will ask stupid questions. I promise. Just be gentle with me. :eek:

Haha... again I can see you guys are missing where I am coming from - albeit from past experiences. When I say I feel people are stupid, I don't treat them like they are stupid... I just needed to vent the other night. With the guy with the torn off ground plug, yes there was a moment I stared at the plug confused that may of made him feel silly, but I then explained to him the basic idea of why a ground plug was needed. So I won't be the person barking "Use google stupid". However, I may ask "What have you done to try and solve the problem thus far" or "What do you think could be causing the problem". I try to live by the old saying, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."

Where I do see a flaw that I try to not get to me, is when a person comes for help and I try to gather information they immediatly become irate. The more I try to probe for information or get a general understanding of their level of knowledge, the more they get angry which starts to get me irate as well. I mean if you don't want to have to speak a single word, listen to a single word, or even remotely try to play along, then go to your local repair shop and pay a technician. I don't mind the person that tries to get something for free, just don't get confrontational when I try to do more than just "fix" your problem.

Anyway, keep the conversation going. I by no means claim perfection, and since this is my first ever experience teaching outside of a forum(with no teacher training - I am an Engineer graduate), it has been a great challenge. I'm sure I have just as much to learn from my students as they do from me.

P.S.

the itoonz sister hacker being the best so far

I had a very much needed hearty laugh at this one too...

blackbelt_jones
06-05-2007, 12:23 PM
Lol.. my comment has been taking out of context and made into a thread entirely on it's own! :eek:

Well, if you read the qualifier "in RL, not so much on forums" you can get a little insight where I'm coming from. I don't think I've talked down to anyone on these forums, as I see it that you took the time to make a login and post your problem, then you have the desire to learn. Those last three words are the key.

In RL, I work with a lot of stupid people. I call them stupid, but really a better term would be intentional stupidity derived from laziness(I don't know how and don't care to know, just fix it). About 6 months ago, myself and a good friend started a non-profit group that teaches basic computer skills with encouragement to learn and use Linux at home. We received about 10 PCs from a local printing press that have Linux installed to have a small psuedo-classroom. We also advertise to bring in your own PC to learn how to troubleshoot the problems you are having on your own PC, as well as have an opportunity to install Linux with a more knowledgeable person present to help you along.

Long story short, we do have a few people that have came, learned something new, and made the overall experience worth continuing. However, there is a large portion of people that show up for the free tech support but are completely uninterested in learning anything or even providing useful information on symptoms to help fix their PC. It gets very frustrating when I can spend hours of my volunteer time on someone who is not even appreciative. I'd rather spend it helping someone that would like to learn^^;

Anyway, I made that comment after trying to figure out what was causing problems with one of the "I don't wanna learn anything guys" to finally find out after getting him to present all his cables that he took a pliers to the ground prong and tore it off to fit a non-grounded wall outlet.... So yea, I was feeling like people are stupid at the moment... So, if you still feel I'm an arrogant geek, so be it - not trying to impress you. There will always be people I feel are stupid, which has nothing to do with an elitist attitude. I do try to help people, but only if they want to be helped.

Consider this thread to to be (in part) inspired by your post and not a rebuttal to it. I saw nothing in your post that I actively disagreed with; I just wanted to use the opportunity to share some thoughts I've been having. We all know that there are idiots out there. Some are willing to do the work of learning and some aren't. Either way, I submit that "Try a google search for X" is often the best way to help them without doing the work for them.

I think it's best to give people the benefit of the doubt, and that goes both ways. People who are truly lazy and uncurious won't be asking questions about Linux, they'll just stick to Windows. And if some educated geek is taking the time to answer your stupid question, it's because he or she wants to be helpful, even if the "tough love" approach seems to be momentarily displaced.

Obviously, if you've started an organization to educate others, you need not defend your good inentions to me or anyone. And I'm very interested in your organization; does it have a website?

crow2icedearth
06-06-2007, 01:26 AM
I am definatly a computer nerd , geek...... I have used everything from windows 3.1 - vista and linux , solaris , freebsd .

I tend to use gentoo , slackware , freeBSD and vista the most. yeah i know i will get bashed for using vista but it came on my laptop and i decided to keep it because i do graphic design /webpages in which i need that enivornment. but on my machines at home all run either linux or freebsd

think it's best to give people the benefit of the doubt, and that goes both ways. People who are truly lazy and uncurious won't be asking questions about Linux, they'll just stick to Windows. And if some educated geek is taking the time to answer your stupid question, it's because he or she wants to be helpful, even if the "tough love" approach seems to be momentarily displaced.


im not lazy i use both....... i use them depending on the job ...... to many people like to bash MS... they do have a place and so does unix and linux sytems....... i use them to get the job done .....

i know samba , ssh , php , apache , mysql , nfs , telnet , ftp , bind , and starting to learn postfix .

many linux users like to bash windows users, i kind of find it funny because i do both very well.......

blackbelt_jones
06-06-2007, 08:37 AM
yeah i know i will get bashed for using vista but it came on my laptop and i decided to keep it because i do graphic design /webpages in which i need that enivornment. but on my machines at home all run either linux or freebsd




Hell, I'm sure lots of us are using some kind of Windows as least some of the time, probably a majority.

boxxertrumps
06-06-2007, 09:36 AM
Actually, I usually bring a liveCD to school so i dont have to use windows...
I never spend more than 5 minutes on it any given week, usually to start a malware scan.
I'm just soo annoyed at how unresponsive it can be at times, how prone to crashes etc...