My opinion, observations and experiences...

[MkIII_Supra]

Observations and opinions:

This is my written observations and opinions on Linux in general. I already know I am going to tick off quite a few people. I don't really care if I do or not, I am finally expressing my 8 years of experiences and observations of Linux. If you don't agree, that's fine. But don't come bashing me for my opinions and observations and experiences with Linux.

I started with Linux back in 1999, when my Windows 98 crashed hard and took a larger Word document with it. I was in the Navy at the time working on a 300+ page document for my upper chain of command... due of course the next morning after the crash! Long story short, I was introduced to then German SuSE 6.3 (maybe it was 6.2...) that my neighbor was using. So I went to Fry's to purchase SuSE Linux and go from there. I wasn't savvy enough to download and install from the internet at the time.

Fry's didn't have SuSE so I got Mandrake 6.5 instead. It wasn't until 2001 that I was actually able to run a Linux system 100% without Microsoft, but that only lasted until about 2003 when I had to dual boot due to work needs. I learned a ton of things about PC's and Operating Systems back then, because of Linux. I started to understand how PC's worked and how to diagnose a PC that was dead or dying. I started to get comfortable with command line and re-compiling kernels and such. In a nut shell I was becoming a pretty savvy Linux user back then. Things changed and Linux got easier to use. I found myself not in the command line as much (hallelujah for that!) and I found that the GUI and applications were improving. I still use the command line on occasion, just because I want to keep some of my skills but I am finding I don't really need it anymore with modern Linux systems.

BUT, there is always that evil but! And that is I also found that Linux was and still is sorely lacking in many areas and still difficult to use in others. Like most normal people that have personal relationships (I have a daughter which I get partial custody of and a girlfriend) and other hobbies (bicycling, backpacking, camping...), I did not (and still don't really) want to be tied to a computer trying to get something that should work, to work! I found that consistency between distributions was non-existent. KDE would look and feel one way under Mandrake (now Mandriva), SuSE, Mepis... so on. There was no consistency or standard between distributions using the same Window Manager! The consistency I am speaking of is the look, feel and application function / usability of KDE from one system to another. The ability to compile / install tarballs between systems as well. The other lack of consistency was and still is with hardware as well. Sure they all detect the hardware and for the most part, get it right. But on many occasions that is where the systems diverge. Some would pick up a scanner (with quite a bit of effort) and I could use it, some would load the same scanner with no effort on my part (how it should be!) and others no matter what, I could see the scanner but it would never work, no matter what I did or what file I tweaked. I only pick a scanner as one of many examples.

Case in point, I moved to SuSE 9.0 after Mandriva started to get flaky and act like Windows in the sense that it would randomly lock up or crash. At first I thought it was hardware failing since historically that had been the case with a flaky Linux system, but after a thorough inspection and testing and of course loading different distributions, I came to the realization it was Mandriva. Lo and behold! Hardware that didn't work with Mandriva (scanners, printers and web cams... which I still have and use) worked with SuSE. Only thing changed was the distribution. SuSE was also faster and it didn't crash (kernel panic) or lock up! Well that is until the 10.0 series. And for the first time I was able to use proprietary nVidia drivers and get full 3D from my video cards! But SuSE had a dark side as well. Having compiled several kernels in my earlier days I was very comfortable doing so and in order to speed the system up a bit, I felt it necessary. But not one single kernel I recompiled for any of the SuSE distributions ever works. They all panicked. I searched all over and tried every solution I could find. Same results. After two years of trying, I finally quit trying to recompile kernels and just lived with whatever was installed.

Then the software nightmare with SuSE! Man what a headache that became! If it wasn't an RPM from SuSE (Novell) I was in for a fight to install it. 90% of the time I would succeed but of that about 20% ended with a system that was unstable and flaky as all get out. And don't even TRY to compile a tarball! I had a 100% failure rate with those as well. As in not one single tarball installed. Every single one of them failed and all the searching of the error codes never resolved that issue either. So I just finally gave up and accepted what software came with SuSE as what I could use. End of headache.

The OpenSuSE (still SuSE but now under Novell... of sorts) 10. series came out and wow! What a leap in everything except for speed... what!? Yup that's right, my systems started to slow to a crawl. Then to top it off networking and printer sharing and such broke. I couldn't share my printer out to my other systems in the house anymore, I had to go back to SuSE 9.2 to get that function back again. Then the wireless card issue... over a year I fought to get my wireless card to work (my posts on it are here...) to no avail. Meanwhile I am trying other distributions out. Kubuntu, Ubuntu, Mepis... on and on, trying to find that one distribution that would fulfill my needs and wants without consuming my time to set-up and maintain. You see that is the key here. My time is precious and I don't want to spend my precious time that I could be using my PC or doing other things trying to get something simple to frigging work.

7+ years I had fought with and cajoled Linux along. And until recently, I have always been disappointed with the end result, it never was what or how I wanted... no matter how hard I tried and how many hours I put into it. But even under threat of abandoning Linux, I stuck it out. Right now PCLinuxOS seems (let me emphasize the word SEEMS) to be working out. My wireless card, the same one that I fought with tooth and nail under OpenSuSE, worked with 5 minutes of setting it up... and it still works. But the sleep functions and other laptop features that did work with SuSE, don't seem to be working with PCLinuxOS. But that is not as important to me at this moment (that will change I am sure). So here I am in year 8 and PCLinuxOS seems (again emphasis SEEMS) to be footing the bill. Hopefully it continues to do so.

I for the first time in my 8 years of using Linux have been able to mount Windows drives as part of my system without having to open Konqueror and type smb\\192.168.0.1\C$ it was in my file system and it mounts at boot time. All the directions I had read and the failed attempts with SuSE and Mandriva (ironic too because PCLinuxOS is a Mandriva off shoot!), it took me 10 minutes to set up with PCLinuxOS and Webmin... and it works great. My PC's, 2 desktops and 1 laptop all NOW haul booty. My 1.2GHz Duron system fly's as fast as it did with Windows 98 and even Windows 2000 Pro 7 years ago, it just doesn't crash! My dual core AMD 3800+ screams along with PCLinuxOS compared to OpenSuSE it's a Ferrari instead of a Lada. It was painfully slow with OpenSuSE and the other pro for PCLinuxOS, it seems to use memory MUCH BETTER than any of the other distributions I have tried.

Linux has made some massive strides in the last few years in ease of use and look and feel. I will acknowledge this and agree that they are good steps. BUT Linux still is too inconsistent and disjointed for non-technical users, this is my honest opinion again based on my experiences with various Linux distributions and hardware. And maybe so long as it is pre-installed for the average user and they are trained, it can possibly be a good desktop. But the inconsistent way application run or don't run, install or don't install is still an Achilles heel the Linux coders need to address. Having tried at least 9 distributions in the last 2 years (and that is a lot of time I wish I could have back!) I have found that Linux really isn't ready for the masses yet, it's not consistent in look, feel and application functionality. Until the inconsistent feel and menu layouts and application installation and compiling are cleaned and consistent through all the major distributions, Linux will continue to be a “geeks” OS and a curiosity at best on the desktop.

Sure I have succeeded and managed to stay 100% Linux since 2005 ( I had to dual boot for a while because I had several applications that I needed for work that had no Linux equivalent and wouldn't work with wine or crossover). But that has been at a huge price of time and inability to enjoy some things that my Windows using counter-part could enjoy. I don't know how many videos I was not able to watch or how many web sites I couldn't fully enjoy because of the limitations of Linux. Granted these are rapidly changing now, and it's about time. But there is still the multi-media inconsistency throughout the distributions as to how various media files are handled. And yes I have managed to get most of them to work. But that is time I would have rather spent enjoying the video.

I will continue to use Linux in the hopes that one day it gains hardware vendor support and that some of the Windows only and even Macintosh only formats and applications become available. But until then I will live with the shortcomings and continue to use the various work arounds I have learned to do what I want to do. But the truth is Linux is still not quite ready for the general masses. And so long as an update doesn't fudge things up, I am able to use my Linux with more efficiency than Windows.

Right now PCLinuxOS seems to be on the right track. Once key thing is at least when the kernel is updated PCLinuxOS will also update my proprietary nVidia driver, OpenSuSE would crash X and I would have to manually re-run the nVidia installer to get X back. This is just one example of what I mean. Mom and Dad average do not want to deal with that... they want it to just work, like a toaster or a microwave. It's getting there... maybe next year.

Me, I am just a power user that doesn't want to be bothered with getting under the hood to make something simple work. As I get older I find I have less patience and my desire to get under the hood wanes. I am finding that I have other things I would rather do. Like my car, I just want my PC to work. And yes I can do the maintenance on my car, I can rebuild the entire power train should I need too... but why? I'll pay a mechanic to do that while I am out doing something else more fun. And that is how I am starting to view my PC. I don't want to futz with it... like about 80% (a guess but I would say relatively accurate) of the other PC users out there, we just want to use it not work on it. :eek:

[stumbles]

That was a very good read and have no issues with what you said.

[boxxertrumps]

I've actually never tried to compile a tarball before.
What do i have to do?

[stumbles]

I've actually never tried to compile a tarball before.
What do i have to do?

Well that depends on what the tarball is and what dependencies it may have. The process is quite easy once you have all the pieces in place. Most it will be one of two ways;

./configure && make
and logged in a root; make install

Well there is a lot more to it than that. If you just run with the defaults of ./configure it almost always will set things up to be installed into /usr/local. If that is not where you want it then you have to say;

./configure --prefix=/usr

Some tarballs you have to diddle with a Makefile in lieu of ./configure. But the rest is the same, make && make install (mostly).

Also depending on what it is you really have to know what your doing else you could seriously hose things, like totally break your toolchain. You know, things like glibc and gcc.

Again it really depends on what the tarball is.

[crow2icedearth]

It wasn't until 2001 that I was actually able to run a Linux system 100%

wow that shocks me because i started with linux in 1997. at that time it was such a pain to install . had to install from floppys because cd burners wernet common back then..... a install would take a long time if one floppy failed. using dd or rawrite to write it to a floppy was a pain and the ***.......

i was glad that over time burners became norm and iso images were used which are much easier. i used linux from 1997 - 99 off and on then became fulltime around 99

[MkIII_Supra]

Okay, I went back and read the parent post... pretty much covered all bases. But there are a couple things I want to clarify and add.

1. My old AMD Duron PC is now at the office (UC Santa Cruz) and is my development / internet workstation. Here are the specifications for that:

MONITOR: 17" Sony Trinitron
MOTHER BOARD: ASUS A7V8X-X
CPU: AMD Duron 1.2GHz Cache = 64MB
RAM: 1.25GB PC-2700
HARD DRIVE: 20GB 7200RPM Quantum Fireball
HARD DRIVE: 40GB 7200RPM Maxtor
HARD DRIVE: 80GB 7200RPM Western Digital
I am guessing on the drives since the system is at work... I will correct it tomorrow
OPTICAL DRIVE(S): AOpen 5224 CD-RW 52x24x52x / Generic USB 16X DVD RW
VIDEO: NV18 GeForce4 MX440 AGP 8x 64MB RAM
SOUND: Creative Ensoniq CT5880
MODEM: N/A
NETWORK: 3-Com 3c905 100BaseTX
[B]INPUT: Dell keyboard / Inland 5 button with scroll wheel trackball
PRINTER(S): HP 4250 LaserJet via network connection.
SCANNER: N/A
OS: PCLinuxOS TR4

I have a total of 7 Windows systems mapped into my Linux system so I have full access with all my applications! This may seem trivial to some, but to me it's massive in that after many years of trying with other distributions and having sporadic and limited success, this is awesome. And it was effortless, like I said earlier. I have the proprietary nVidia drivers installed and another nice thing, a GUI tool for postgresql. I was going to use MySQL but that nasty thing reared it's head and I can't get MySQL to function properly on this box. But it works fine on my home system! Go figure!

2. My laptop, this is a system that I travel with for both work and personal use.

System Manufacture: Toshiba
Make / Model: Satelite A15-S129
Hard Drive: Toshiba 80GB 7200RPM IDE
CPU Manufacture: Celeron
CPU Type/Speed: 2.4GHz
RAM Specs: 1GB PC-PC2100 SDRAM
Video Card: Intel 855GM AGP 4X
Optical Drives: 8X DVD / 24X CD/CD-R - 10X CD-RW
NIC: Intel GM855
Modem: Intel 56K
NIC: Intel / WPC54G Ver. 3 Notebook Adapter
Sound Card: Intel
monitor: 15 in. XGA TFT Active Matrix
Mouse: Inland 5 button trackball / Touchpad
Operating System: PCLinuxOS TR4

Under SuSE and OpenSuSE, all the ACPI functions worked flawlessly. But under PCLinuxOS, it doesn't appear to be the case. I will futz with it a little bit this weekend and see what I can get going. But the bonus is wireless works great. Although I have to reload the ndiswrapper driver anytime I move to a new location. Minor irritant but one I can live with for now. I am just happy the stupid thing finally works!

3. And the main system I have at home. This is my main system that I use to create DVD projects of family photos and such. I also use it for e-mail, finance tracking and other general use things. I don't program on this system since I don't want to mess with the set up now that I have every thing that I want and need working 99%. I still have a couple small minor things to iron out, which I will in due time.

MONITOR: Avidav LCD 17” Flat Panel
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ 2GHz dual core 640kb + 640kb cache
POWER SUPPLY: Coolmax 80mm ATX 450W
HARD DRIVE: Seagate 80GB SATA-II / 8MB cache / SATA-300
HARD DRIVE: Seagate 160GB SATA-II / 8MB cache / SATA-3G
VIDEO CARD: MSI NX7300LE PCI-E 128MB DDR2 nVidia GeForce 7 Series
MOTHERBOARD: ASUS M2V <GREEN> Socket AM2, VIA K8T890/VT8237A, HT2000, DDR2 800, PCI-e x16 Green ASUS
RAM: DDR2 Kingston matched 2GB 800MHz
SOUND: Creative SoundBlaster AudioPCI 128
OPTICAL DRIVE: Generic 16x DVD RW/R
SCANNER: Canon LiDE 35
PRINTER: HP Photosmart 8250
OS: PCLinuxOS 64bit TR4

So far this system has been 100% reliable. No major issues yet and I have been able to install from source tarballs with no issues arising. kind of nice! The only issue I have run into is my old Civilization CivCTP will not load the patches. But that could be because of the 64bit architecture and it was written a couple years ago. No real big loss. So far everything I have tried works. The next test is to print a photo onto photo paper from the Gimp. I tried with OpenSuSE several times and all I got was a bunch of text and no image and even then it would print a character or two then cycle through all the paper in the queue. I never did find out why that was.

So there, that is what I am running currently for hardware. I am in the process of looking to upgrade the Duron system in the next 6 moths, but I may hold off indefinitely so long as PCLinuxOS continues to perform reliably and fast. :D

PS: All three of these systems used to run OpenSuSE... all three performed like dogs. I was especially surprised by the dual core Athlon! It would take almost a minute to open OpenOffice, even with the OpenOffice quickstarter running! On my PCLinuxOS system it takes about 3-5 seconds to start. I think I may keep this going, I think it's about time people admit that Linux has issues. It's one thing I never see real Linux users admit. But I will, and there are some on this board that have known me for a while... and you know I will speak my mind regardless who it offends. I am not what you call "PC". Guess I am old school like that. A spade is a spade and a heart a heart. May your Linux experiences be far more pleasant then some of mine have been! Just don't quit without a fight... after all, just because I am admitting faults with the system, I still use it. :eek: :rolleyes: :D

Corrected hardware on Work station.

[MkIII_Supra]

wow that shocks me because i started with linux in 1997. at that time it was such a pain to install . had to install from floppys because cd burners wernet common back then..... a install would take a long time if one floppy failed. using dd or rawrite to write it to a floppy was a pain and the ***.......

i was glad that over time burners became norm and iso images were used which are much easier. i used linux from 1997 - 99 off and on then became fulltime around 99

It wasn't until about 2002 that I downloaded and tried to burn my first ISO. But I continued to pay for my CD's until 2004... yeah, I think it was 2004 when I bought my last Linux distribution and started to download ISO's and baking my own.

[Parcival]

Me, I am just a power user that doesn't want to be bothered with getting under the hood to make something simple work. As I get older I find I have less patience and my desire to get under the hood wanes.

That's why I privately use only Mac computers with OS X as desktops after having made similar experiences. However, Linux still runs on my servers and I can't think of anything better for that purpose (well, *BSD, but I don't wanna dig into that either).

[mrBen]

I don't have issue with what you've said at all.

Personally, (and I offer this simply as an experience, rather than as a counter-argument, or anything like that) I am still really impressed with Ubuntu, not necessarily because it has got everything right, but because it appears to be going in the right direction, and going there quickly.

Case in point - videos on the internet. When you go to watch them in Totem (the default media player), if it can't find the codec, it now searches for an appropriate (gstreamer) codec, and offers to install. It's the little things like this that are gradually making it a desktop experience to be reckoned with.

I guess there are 2 sides to the coin. On the one hand, in your 7 years, things _still_ aren't "fixed", but on the other, look at all the progress that has been made in those 7 years.

[trilarian]

All valid points... really. I shared some of the same views when I started out - I remember it took me nearly a week to get sound to work on my first Linux install - until I just accepted my main desktop (which usually gets annual upgrades) will have to be a dual-boot as the new hardware will not always work with Linux right away. I was 18 at the time of my first Linux install, so the extra time wasn't as hard to come by as it is now. While I like the sense of accomplishment, I'd rather feel that from writing a program or something else significant instead of doing something simple like getting my NIC card to work.

Only suggestion I have for you, is if you don't mind making an initial investment of time to learn a different distro, try a distro that doesn't use RPMs. It's not a holy grail of a change, but I do find it MUCH easier to maintain my Debian servers (that use DEBs over RPMs) at the house over the SuSe servers at work. Apt-get, dselect, or aptitude - whichever you prefer - just seem so much easier in my eyes.

apt-get install x : install program x
apt-get dist-upgrade : upgrade all software

It doesn't get much easier than that. However, the initial install may take some time to do and learn the small differences. Also, once you configure a system, make a backup of your /etc and /home directories to keep your config files. A new install for me requires hardly any configuration as I just reuse the archived config files.

One thing I would really like to see happen, is the community as a whole understand the value of the dollar (or whatever money unit in the respective country) to business. Let me clarify here. What I mean is it is very hard to impossible for a "for profit" company to get board approval with their share holders to pay high amounts of money to programmers to write open source code when they can show $0 net gain in return(can't sell the code written). Yes, they can save money on not paying for a windows install. Yes, they can gain a market if they integrate Linux into their products. Yes, they can sell support on their products using Linux. However, where does that leave a 100% software company that has a piece of software they have been working on for 10 years? Don't get me wrong, I love the idealism of Linux and will most likely take it to the grave with me. I never want to see Linux become a paid licensing OS, nor do I want to see it go closed source. I just think to grab a large portion of the non-technical users and to have Linux able to work out-of-the-box with the newest technologies, there is going to have to be company programmer support and/or cooperation. And the only way I see the biggest companies that could affect that start to play nice, is for them to have an incentive to do so...

[IsaacKuo]

Until the inconsistent feel and menu layouts and application installation and compiling are cleaned and consistent through all the major distributions, Linux will continue to be a “geeks” OS and a curiosity at best on the desktop.

The inconsistent feel and menu layouts and application installation in Windows hasn't prevented Windows from being used by "normal" users on the desktop. (And compiling? On Windows?)

The feel and menu layouts in various Linux distributions are leaps and bounds ahead of the non-organized mish-mash of Windows.

Still, there's obviously room for improvement. There needs to be some sort of special "meta-package" file type which is little more than a package name plus perhaps some links to related files. The purpose of this "meta-package" file is so that you can make a generic link to a package on a web page. Thus, a user can simply click on that "meta-package" file and the distribution's package management system can take care of the rest to install the package. This file can either be on a local filesystem (e.g. e-mailed or on a thumbdrive), or it can be on a web page.

This gives the advantages of a universal method of installing software without sacrificing the advantages of having a variety of package management systems. Gentoo fans don't have to give up compiler optimizations. Debian fans don't have to give up the Stable/Testing/Unstable options. Arch fans don't have to give up the flexible package creation/sharing options.

Even better, this generic "meta-package" link file could be used for different operating systems--the same web page link could be used for Linux, BSD, Solaric, Mac, Windows...anything.

[blackbelt_jones]

My milage may vary

I'll say it again; I'm convinced the problem is cultural, not technical. When users can get preinstalled, preconfigured Linux on a decent computer and support at their local computer shop, and when everybody knows someone they can ask for simple answers, Linux will be ready for the "nontechnical users".

As so often happens, I am confronted with a user whose experience differs from mine, and I can only shrug. I used SUSE for two years, and I didn't have any of the problems you mentioned. I didn't notice any difference in speed between 10.0 and 10.2, and I certainly managed to compile tarballs without incident (the secret may be to install all the development packages right away, including tons of stuff I never used.) But having set up the guru and and packman repositories in YAST, I rarely needed to compile anything.

I have recently switched back to Debian, not because of any performance issues but because I like to use apt-get, because I had learned enough to solve the problems I used to have with Debian, and because I respect Richard Stallman enough to use an operating system that remembers to keep the "GNU" in it's official title. Plus all those packages!

[trilarian]

Very true... but that goes back to my statement on we need company(s) backing if you want the common person that only checks emails, looks at video clips online, etc. crowd(at least in the areas with a standing windows saturation). To them, even installing windows is scary. However, even with a pre-installed Linux, I've seen hesitation because they can't just ask their neighbor how to solve a problem - they have to call someone specialized with Linux.

The other point to that is you get the power user that has some techincal saviness to them(burns DVDs, rips MP3s, etc.) that will have the latest and greatest hardware and want it to work without any major setup. If the hardware vendors start providing offical Linux packages on the install CD then you would see more of these users that are satisfied. After all, they could put there money into better hardware instead of wasting it on a crappy OS.

It has come a long way, as I now recommend Linux to people I never would have before(mainly because I didn't want 24/7 tech support calls), and some companies are starting to catch on. Many printer and ups companies offer linux install files now. However, I don't think I could convince my parents just yet to give it a whirl...

[blackbelt_jones]

The truth is that Linux is ready for the "nontechnical user" who knows what he or she is in for. Learning Linux is easier than learning the guitar or a foreign language, and a lot less scary than learning how to drive.

No one was more "nontechnical" than me when I started. I was the last person in my family to get an online computer, and that includes both my parents. It took a lot of time, effort and frustration for me to learn Linux. (I'd argue that much of that was unnecessary, that more user-oriented documentation would have helped immensely, and great strides have been made in that area in the past few years, and I still intend to write my own book one day. )

But it was doable, and I did it (to the extent that I can now do everything I want from the linux desktop, usually faster and more conveniently than in Windows) and it was completely worth it. If Linux never achieves a desktop that is as dumbed-down as Windows, it will always be available to those who want to make the effort. Those who don't can go ahead and use whatever Steve Ballmer tells them to use, but anyone who is forty or younger (and I'm almost fifty) who expects to use a computer for an hour a day for the rest of their life can expect the time and effort invested in learning linux to be rewarded abundantly over a computer lifetime.

Nontechnical people can learn if they want to. Learning is good, not bad. Anyone who has IQ above 90 can take some time away from their gaming and porn and learn about the most exciting and culturally significant technology since Gutenberg. If you don't want to make the effort, that's valid, but you are invited.

[The Coder]

I am not arguing just stating my opinion. I agree, i also have ran into frustrating problems with Linux. For example I am still having problems getting my HP Laserjet 1012 printer working properly and reliably in Linux(Got it to work in one release and stoped working in another). It is atleast 3 years old, but am having problems. I have been using Linux, various distros etc since about 97, when I first started with Redhat 5.1. Here are some of my comments/observations...


If you want a distro where you just put it in and it installs and configures easily, I would choose *buntu. I was using Ubuntu when it first started and I was impressed even back then. I have used Redhat, Slackware and SUSE and I love Ubuntu in many respects.

I give a lot of credit to the open source community/developers. I think the biggest thing holding further progress back is the lack of company cooperation in relation to creation of drivers. The first company that comes to mind is Creative. Neither do these companies release good drivers themselves nor do they release the source code or the way the hardware works for the open source developers to write a driver. Even with these hurdles, there have been many reverse engineered drivers etc that work pretty good. The reason Windows and Mac seem so "easy" is that they deal directly with a lot of companies and these companies write drivers specifically for their OS. If this situation improves, which it has, Linux will be easier to use than Mac or Windows. It has a larger community looking at the code and fixes come much quicker than any of the other OSs I know.

A lot of your satisfaction of Linux depends on the particular use that you have for it and the hardware you are using. For example, most all my hardware is fully supported in Linux and so I am quite happy with it. But if I had a wireless network setup I might not be so happy.

I think Linux is pretty good for the desktop for a basic user today. My definition of a basic user is someone who uses the PC for Wordprocessing, Internet surfing and email. I think linux has pretty stable apps for all these purposes.

[Parcival]

@Mister_Ben:

I agree with you that Ubuntu is going into the right direction. In my family I am finally only supporting Kubuntu respectively Xubuntu computers and while they have cut down significantly on my support times compared to Windows, they get further cut down with every new Ubuntu release. Personally, however, I still prefer OS X because it combines the advantages of closed and opensource software.

[blackbelt_jones]

@Mister_Ben:

I agree with you that Ubuntu is going into the right direction. In my family I am finally only supporting Kubuntu respectively Xubuntu computers and while they have cut down significantly on my support times compared to Windows, they get further cut down with every new Ubuntu release. Personally, however, I still prefer OS X because it combines the advantages of closed and opensource software.

I have learned to love the idea of Ubuntu, and I always try every new release, and I'm always very impressed up to the point where it breaks down on me, which it always does. I don't know what that's about, but Ubuntu is still very young. Eventually, it's going to get to the point where even my custom built computer will like it, and if it's well configured for its debut as a Dell preinstall, it's probably going to make history.

[infiniphunk]

blackbelt_jones you hit the nail right on the head, I couldn't agree more. Ubuntu is still my distro being used every day, but like you, it always seems to break at some point. I like to keep another desktop around on another partition to go to when that happens. For me, a large part of the joy in learning linux is overcoming the occasional frustrations (like the recent kernel-update ;P) but on the whole, it is amazing. I never lose data anymore. I enjoy rich web and multimedia experiences, and most of all I am productive as far as the creation of documents as I need them (for school or work) and internet communication. There is the odd game distraction, a toy app like Celestia or Google Earth.
Despite the still occasional hiccup, I find that my computing experience is what I'd want it to be.
Write that book, blackbelt_jones, many of us here might want to read it.

[MkIII_Supra]

you both make my point. I don't use Ubuntu or Kubuntu for the following reasons:

1. Don't like the Gnome interface.
2. I find the Gnome interface less flexible than KDE when it comes to configuration.
3. Both Ubuntu and Kubuntu break, rather easily too from what I have experienced.
4. Kubuntu still can't seem to get my laptop right. ACPI and such, after some futzing some of it will work. At least with SuSE all laptop functions, including the Toshiba keys, work with no effort on my part. This goes back to the hardware consistency I was noting in earlier posts. one Distribution gets it right, and another can't?!
5. Kubuntu's menus are a disaster and require manual clean up. Not my idea of a fun or productive way to spend an afternoon.

But the biggest thing is the fact that Kubuntu and Ubuntu, while obviously very popular, are not reliable enough for me. As I stated earlier, I don't want to have to futz with my PC anymore. I think Parcival has it right, use Mac to get stuff done as a desktop, use Linux to play and learn. Macintosh has it right with the ease of use and reliability thing.

Again though, I will admit that Linux has come a long ways. But it still has a ways to go in my opinion. The LSB was a step in the right direction. But like I said, until this inconsistency between distributions with hardware, and in some cases software is cleaned up, it's still not ready.

Here is another example of inconsistency I am speaking of: As you can see in a previous post in this thread I am running PCLinuxOS TR4 on all 3 of my systems. On my laptop and Duron workstation the spell check while you type feature works in both Kmail and Firefox. But on my main dual core system, it doesn't. I checked and the aspell / ispell packages are installed on all systems. And yet I am not getting a consistent performance of software across systems. Now it's possible that it's because the dual core system is also a 64bit system and this is why it's not working. A semi-minor issue one that I am investigating and trying to correct. I am a stickler for correct spelling. So not having the spell check feature functioning in two applications that I use extensively is annoying.

As a side note, none of these systems has any special tweaking done at all. They are stock installs with the dual core being the longest running at 29d 23:16h as of this post.

[funnybug]

Well, I'm still on the honeymoon with Linux. Still trying to feel my way around.. But it's comforting to see that things I am struggling with are not "just me". Like the rest of the world, I've become complasant and lazy and expect everything to work, or download something by itself to work.

[infiniphunk]

Don't get me wrong, I still believe linux is just about the best thing going right now. The fact that there is so much diversity when it comes to distros makes it such that there is almost something for everyone.
My mother has a power MAC G5, and its pretty cool, but I dunno, although I find that it does what its supposed to do very well, there are limitations as far as desktop customizing and such. In comparison to Gnome, KDE or XFCE, OS X is pretty rigid. I'm sorry, I just find Gnome to be a much more responsive desktop. My main compy is just a 2.0 Ghz P4, yet I find it to be every bit as fast (sometimes faster) as the G5. I'm usually running Debian or Slackware of some type, and I even have less memory than mom's machine has. I'm not even going to compare my experience of linux to Windows, which is (IMHO) total crap to work with.
I said in another thread that sometimes I have doubts as to whether linux is ready to be a desktop OS. I'd say it is, to a point. It all boils down to the user, the user's needs and experience level. Does the user just want something that will work? Does the user want something that can be tweaked and futzed with? I like to putter, when I have time. Now that I'm done school and I'm a technician, even more so than before. Yet I'm still learning, and at times I would still just prefer to avoid the gory details of system configuration and do something else. Case in point, the recent ubuntu update that caused a lot of grief for a bunch of us. It's a PITA, but it could just be for users like me that have all kinds of strange hardware profiles. I'm still waiting for an answer on that one. I see the Dell-Ubuntu thing in a positive light, and hope that noobs buying those systems won't have some of these serious software problems with updates.
In reality tho, I'm pretty sure that they'll get it right soon. Compare Feisty to some of the earlier releases! Imagine ubuntu 7.10? 8.04??!! I like to think positive, and I think linux is a giant tech success story already that's just getting better all the time. Mark my words, give it another couple years and there's going to be a whole lot of demand for guys like us in help-desk and tech-support jobs.

[blackbelt_jones]

On my machine, openSUSE is a great desktop system that functions almost perfectly... but it takes some considerable setting up. It's not like Ubuntu, where you can just boot the live CD and click on the desktop icon.

And why does openSUSE work great for me, and not for MkIII_Supra? Is he doing something wrong? Maybe. He seems pretty savvy generally, but how many people understand the ins and outs of every distro? Or is it some kind of problem between software and hardware?

Please don't take offense, MkIII_Supra, because I have the same situation in reverse using Ubuntu. People tell me I'm not using Ubuntu right, but I can get Debian to work fine, and I can get SUSE to work fine, so why can't I get Ubuntu, which is supposed to be so incredibly user-friendly, to work?

It would be interesting to see if I could get SUSE working on MkIII_Supra's hardware, and if someone else could get Ubuntu up and running reliably on my hardware.

My point is that great desktop Linux exists; I've got it right here-- but can my experience be mass-produced? Maybe the new Ubuntu-on-Dell release will answer that question.

[MkIII_Supra]

Oh OpenSuSE runs on my hardware but with the following issues:

1. None of my custom kernels will work, they all panic. But for fun I just recompiled my laptop kernel, stripped a lot of stuff out I don't need... PCLinuxOS, and it booted into the new kernel just fine.

2. For some reaon or other I could never get a tarball to get past make. I always would get some error and of course I would Google it and find solutions... that never worked.

3. RPM's were another headache sometimes.

4. Speed and performance... PCLinuxOS is running circles around OpenSuSE on the same hardware. And I tweaked the OpenSuSE install to make it as speedy as possible. Been using SuSE since 8.5. I haven't tweaked anything on any of the 3 systems (well the laptop now that I recompiled the kernel... just to see if I could) so okay 2 of 3 systems are whatever was installed as configured.

I like OpenSuSE too, but for some screwy reason I can't get it to run as fast as PCLinuxOS, I can't do some of the cool kernel tweaks that a power user should be able to do. So instead of beating my head against the wall for another 2 or 3 years, I moved to something that works.

One thing the last 8 years have taught me, is loyalty to a single distribution is futile. I don't really care which distribution I am running. I do care that it runs fast, stable and I can tweak it should I decide to expend the time doing so. The only reason I re-compiled my kernel on the laptop is because I am waiting for my girlfriend to get here so we can go to the drive in tonight and see either Shrek the third or The Pirate of the Caribean 3. And I don't have a netflix for today.

But as you see the issue isn't really me, you have problems with Ubuntu functioning correctly... and I have issues with OpenSuSE. Oh well! Drink a beer and scratch the noggin eh!?

[blackbelt_jones]

Oh OpenSuSE runs on my hardware but with the following issues:

1. None of my custom kernels will work, they all panic. But for fun I just recompiled my laptop kernel, stripped a lot of stuff out I don't need... PCLinuxOS, and it booted into the new kernel just fine.

2. For some reaon or other I could never get a tarball to get past make. I always would get some error and of course I would Google it and find solutions... that never worked.

3. RPM's were another headache sometimes.

4. Speed and performance... PCLinuxOS is running circles around OpenSuSE on the same hardware. And I tweaked the OpenSuSE install to make it as speedy as possible. Been using SuSE since 8.5. I haven't tweaked anything on any of the 3 systems (well the laptop now that I recompiled the kernel... just to see if I could) so okay 2 of 3 systems are whatever was installed as configured.

I like OpenSuSE too, but for some screwy reason I can't get it to run as fast as PCLinuxOS, I can't do some of the cool kernel tweaks that a power user should be able to do. So instead of beating my head against the wall for another 2 or 3 years, I moved to something that works.

One thing the last 8 years have taught me, is loyalty to a single distribution is futile. I don't really care which distribution I am running. I do care that it runs fast, stable and I can tweak it should I decide to expend the time doing so. The only reason I re-compiled my kernel on the laptop is because I am waiting for my girlfriend to get here so we can go to the drive in tonight and see either Shrek the third or The Pirate of the Caribean 3. And I don't have a netflix for today.

But as you see the issue isn't really me, you have problems with Ubuntu functioning correctly... and I have issues with OpenSuSE. Oh well! Drink a beer and scratch the noggin eh!?

Custom kernels? :confused: What the hell are custom kernels?

I've compiled my own kernel before, or sometimes recompiled the original kernel with a couple of easy tweaks, but I don't usually do that sort of thing anymore without a good reason. And that's probably a shame because I think I've forgotten how to do it. I think you're probably operating at a different level than me. I'm a fairly competent desktop user with some basic grasp of the command line. I suspect that I'm closer to SUSE's target audience than you are, but if you have problems with SUSE and I don't, it's probably not because I know more than you do. I suspect that I know less.

I've never had any problem compiling programs from source with SUSE.

When we talk about SUSE's speed, I assume that we're not talking about that stately glacier of administration, YAST. I love YAST... but not because of its speed! I don't use it every day, so its ponderous speed is not an issue.

Let me say that I've got openSUSE10.2 installed on this machine, and I've got Debian Etch installed on this machine. Both are running with fluxbox as the default desktop, and I couldn't tell you which one runs faster, for the things I use it for, only that I'm perfectly satisfied with both.

It seems to me that Ubuntu always runs incredibly fast on this machine... before it breaks, I mean.

I agree that loyalty to a distro is foolish, to the extent that it prevents someone from exploring and to the extent that it derails objective discussion of just these issues. Seriously, if you could mass-produce my experience with SUSE, it may not be for guys like you, but that "ordinary user" that we're always talking about could thrive. (Except that some us seem to equate "ordinary user" with "moron".)

But obviously, we can't reproduce the experience, and i wonder why that is. Maybe you're just too smart for SUSE? And I'm too smart for Ubuntu?:rolleyes:

[blackbelt_jones]

P.S.: I think it would be helpful if some of us could stop using "desktop" as a synonym for idiot. Linux is not an easier desktop to master than Brand W, it's a better desktop than Brand W, because it empowers the user in ways that Brand W does not. You have a choice of desktop GUIs, including choices that allow the user a practically infinite number of practically infinitely programmable keybindings. You can do just about anything from the GUI, but you can also do just about all of the same things from the command line, and you can use either one you choose from the desktop at any time. Brand W can't touch any of that.

Well, I'm still on the honeymoon with Linux. Still trying to feel my way around.. But it's comforting to see that things I am struggling with are not "just me". Like the rest of the world, I've become complasant and lazy and expect everything to work, or download something by itself to work.

Not many of us would describe the period of time when we are struggling as "the honeymoon". Stick with it and you'll find that the real honeymoon is not only yet to come, it never ends.

[trilarian]

(Except that some us seem to equate "ordinary user" with "moron".)


I guess I somewhat fall in this category haha... Problem I see regularly (in RL, not so much on forums), are there are three types of users that ask me questions regardless of platform.

1) Moron - This just so happens to be the vast majority, but seriously... it's the type of questions that I end up responding "You have it plugged in, right?".

2) Moron #2 - Not quite as plentiful as the above, but still numerous occurrences. Basically this is the guy that knows one or two acronyms and then thinks he is an engineer but really has no relevant knowledge portrayed in his question. "I couldn't get my DVD burner to work. You think it’s because I changed my Front Side Bus (FSB) speed?"

3) Enlightened User - I can count these on my hands, but always a pleasure to help. They generally try to solve the problem on their own first using google or whichever is their preferred way to gather information. Upon being unable to solve the problem, ask me detailed questions giving what they have tried already. If only the world could fall into this category... "I can't get my sound card to work. I installed the proper module and xmms to test the card. Xmms complains about unable to open /dev/dsp." Answer: Put user in group Audio to have permissions for /dev/dsp and /dev/mixer.

I'd say the percentages I see of the above in real life are 60%, 30%, 10%. Your mileage may vary.

[MkIII_Supra]

Custom kernels are kernels you recompile to remove all non-essential modules. The intent and purpose is to streamline the kernel as much as possible so as to reduce memory footprint and increase speed. It also allows you to make tweaks to enhance specific features of your CPU. When I first started learning Linux you literally had to recompile your kernel at least once to get all your hardware working correctly.

So I became pretty comfortable in doing it. But once the kernels hit the 2.6 version and the installers better at setting up hardware and tweaking the kernel for you (still a lot of bloat in it though...) the need to recompile a kernel went away.

[MkIII_Supra]

even though I am having some issues with certain things on my home machine, my work machine was just put through a pretty big test.

If you go back to the first page of this post you will find my system specs there for all 3 machines I own and run. Well there has been a change to my work station, I replaced both the motherboard and CPU for less than $90.00 AND gained at least a 50% performance boost (guestimated performance boost)

MONITOR: 17" Sony Trinitron
MOTHER BOARD: WinFast K8S 755A K8S755A-6ELRS NEW!!!
CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+ 2.2GHz 512 KB cache NEW!!!
RAM: 1.25GB PC-2700
HARD DRIVE: 20GB 7200RPM Quantum Fireball
HARD DRIVE: 40GB 7200RPM Maxtor
HARD DRIVE: 80GB 7200RPM Western Digital
OPTICAL DRIVE(S): AOpen 5224 CD-RW 52x24x52x / Generic USB 16X DVD RW
VIDEO: NV18 GeForce4 MX440 AGP 8x 64MB RAM
SOUND: Creative Ensoniq CT5880
MODEM: N/A
NETWORK: 3-Com 3c905 100BaseTX
[B]INPUT: Dell keyboard / Inland 5 button with scroll wheel trackball
PRINTER(S): HP 4250 LaserJet via network connection.
SCANNER: N/A
OS: PCLinuxOS TR4

Now here is the kudos part... I didn't have to recompile the kernel NOR did I have to reinstall! The first boot took ages to get through as I was testing to make sure everything was working... expecting a kernel panic, since I went from a 7 year old 32 bit CPU to a 1 year old 64 bit CPU. But PCLinuxOS sucked it right up! The second boot (which will be the last one barring hardware failure or the UPS failing) took 1/3 the time of the first boot, and the system fly's!!!

So this is a new one on me! Unless Linux has figured out how to move from arch to arch without a recompile! I am a happy camper for now... till I get home to once again try to resolve the issues with my home PC.

[IsaacKuo]

What did you expect not to work? It looks like you're not using any of the typical on-board motherboard devices (sound, network, video).

With my old Slot-1 hardware, I'd swap motherboards and processors all the time. Debian Sarge didn't even notice the difference, seeing as I kept the same video, sound, and network cards.

Of course, it's critical that the new processor is compatible with the kernel and other binary code. An Athlon 64 is backwards compatible with all 386/486/586/686 code.

Now going from an i686 install down to an i586 Pentium? THAT is a problem! (Which I sort of had to do, once.)

[panther3e]

MkIII_Supra congratulations with Pclos. I have been running Pclos 2007 finale with gnome and I love it. It runs circle around ubuntu feisty fawn. I have tried the normal pclos with kde, but I prefer gnome better.

As for the problems with suse and ubuntu I think a lot of it is due to your system. I have tried several distros and it is odd how one will just work and another based on the same distro will not work at all. I can run debian and ubuntu just fine but knoppx will not run on the same machine. Go figure LOL.

[MkIII_Supra]

MkIII_Supra congratulations with Pclos. I have been running Pclos 2007 finale with gnome and I love it. It runs circle around ubuntu feisty fawn. I have tried the normal pclos with kde, but I prefer gnome better.

As for the problems with suse and ubuntu I think a lot of it is due to your system. I have tried several distros and it is odd how one will just work and another based on the same distro will not work at all. I can run debian and ubuntu just fine but knoppx will not run on the same machine. Go figure LOL.

But for SuSE to perform lousy on 3 diverse systems... I think the issue is with SuSE, if it was one or two of my systems then yes I would buy the system theory. Oh well! PCLinuxOS works (albeit with a few hitches in the giddyap) and I am for the most part happy!

[MkIII_Supra]

So I have finally give OpenSuSE the swift kick here at home... well that is I will as soon as the new PCLinuxOS .iso finishes downloading. I will install it first thing tomorrow morning.

I am tired, tired of having to fight with my computers. All I ask is that the simple stuff works without having to edit .conf files or even ask for help! Is that too much? First it's the whole MS Font issue and once again not being able to compile a tarball. This is an issue I have had with SuSE since I can remember. Then I finally get that figured out and all of a sudden, the JRE / JVM that was working just fine, stops! I can't log into the Oracle database at work because of it. And at home, I can't even run my financial software! Software that I ran just a couple days ago without so much as a hiccup!

Then there is the whole forgetting settings! When I log into KDE3 some of my setting are forgotten. And of course now my sound card doesn't work, when it just did about 30 minutes ago with no problem. I am not futzing with this system! This is an install that I (try) to use as a daily home PC.I am not making any demands of the system other than work the way it was set up too!

PCLinuxOS, I wasn't able to set up dual monitors at work so I have OpenSuSE installed, and I have problems with that system as well! But this week and next I can't take any time out to try and fix it! NO, I have a job to do and it's crunch time this week and next! I have several hundred thousand dollars of utilities bills and several thousand hours / units of utility usage that has to be processed and distributed. I don't have time to be trying to get something simple (um... JRE / JVM!) to work!

I am tired. Sick and tired of having to fix my damn PC's when I am not doing anything to really break them in the first place! I mean hey if I was installing and testing applications and messing with default settings then shame on me! But I am not, I install with the software I need and use. That's it, and the damn OpenSuSE systems are behaving just like Windows used to. I am going to admit, that although it does hang on some applications sometimes, my Windows XP Pro system at work has been pretty damn reliable.

So much so that I am beginning to question many of the accusations about Windows I hear. I mean this is a system that is on a University network! And no compromises, no infections, it just chugs right along. Better than OpenSuSE at the moment. IF I could get the dual head thing figured out and working at the office then I would move back to PCLinuxOS in a heart beat! But I don't have time nor am I paid to invest that time in getting something that should work with a simple click click to work. One of the FEW nice and good things I will say about OpenSuSE.

So here are some of my gripes

1. During the update phase of the initial install, I was asked if I would like to install Microsoft TTFTS. YES! I need them for what I do! Although I said yes and agreed to the license... they are not to be found on my system. I had to use other methods to get them to install.

2. During the attempt to install the MSTTFT on my work station I found that the ttfmkfdir didn't exist. So I followed the instructions to install it... it failed with so many errors that I gave up in frustration. Fortunately I found another solution that was very easy.

3. Font rendering in a critical application was hideous. All attempts to correct it so far have failed 100%. I use this application to track my hours so I can get paid AS well as a variety of job submissions for other shops.

4. The JRE / JVM mysteriously stopped working on both systems (home and work) and nothing I have done so far seems to have fixed it. This is a serious problem in that the ability to log into the above mentioned Oracle application... is now broken! AND I cannot launch my financial software at home!

5. The home system IDE DVD R/RW mysteriously disappeared from the system. So I couldn't find the damn disk when I would put one in. Since it's IDE you would think that /dev/hda would work right? Wrong! Try /dev/sr0 now when did that change? Also after several reboots the DVD was "found" again.... but

6. Now sound, that was working just fine earlier, isn't working! And so far nothing has brought back from the land of silence!

7. System settings and even web settings are forgotten randomly for new rhyme or reason.

8. Performance issues on the work system are really starting to tick me off! The same system that ran PCLinuxOS very quickly and efficiently is running sporadically at best. Sometimes it's on par with the identical XP Pro system next to it for speed, but more often than not it drags it's tail. The same hardware ran circles with PCLinuxOS.

There have been some other issues but you get the picture. I am fed up. I have... well you will have to wait... my woman is home and I have manly duties to attend to, hell of a lot more fun than sitting in front of a damn computer trying to fix it... when it shouldn't need it in the first place!

[saikee]

I will be the first one to admit that there are a lot of things in Linux that can be improved on and among many of my systems I still have hardware issues here and there.

However in general my 3 years with Linux has been like a honeymoon.

There are still a lot of things I don't understand but I am lucky that I am not forced to use any particular system and able to switch around to get what I want to do. Hell no I wouldn't spend my time to investigate why a Mandrake 10 with a 2.4 kernel couldn't fire up my Gigabyte nic when the latest Mandriva can.

I must have installed 150+ Linux in various computers but never had a need to compile a kernel or to find a driver. I just use whatever available inside the distro but my need is not big. Seeing the development pace of Linux in the last three years I think there is no point to pull out my hair if one version of a distro fails in one area and can get fixed in the next release.

I enjoy Linux because I can understand what I do and able to avoid things that I am not yet ready for them. Like booting distros off USB devices I deliberately avoid them initially. Now I understand the principle better and able to make it work. If it doesn't I can understand why some if not all of the reasons.

I also have a total different attitude toward terminal mode. To me that is the best thing since slice bread. That is where the real power of the computer comes from. Much of my booting knowledge is by dealing with Grub directly asking it to do things that I want in a Grub prompt. It always replies so I could try different combinations to exhaust its capabilities. I use the PC as a teacher.

I find Linux a remarkable system. If there is something I believe it can be done then there is a good chance I can find the solution from Linux. It there is something I know cannot be achieved then Linux will also show me the dead end.

Thus I am very happy with Linux. In its current form it is a formidable system. Give a few more years and it will be unstoppable. I clocked my Vista installation which took 30 minutes. It is the first MS Windows that doesn't need me to feed a driver to it but I have been doing the same to every Linux which can be installed on average less than 10 minutes.

[MkIII_Supra]

to work with my work station, I would drop OpenSuSE in a heartbeat and move back to PCLinuxOS. I have the following written on my white board in the office:

113 days
1 hour
23 minutes

That's how long my personal PCLinuxOS system ran at the office before I had to shut it down. OpenSuSE? I just rebooted again, because of several apps locking up to the point that I couldn't kill them, even with root and kill -9 <PID>.

I suppose I could downgrade to OpenSuSE 10.2, it ran okay, a bit sluggish but bearable. It's always one thing, just one thing... well back to work.

[MkIII_Supra]

to work with my work station, I would drop OpenSuSE in a heartbeat and move back to PCLinuxOS. I have the following written on my white board in the office:

113 days
1 hour
23 minutes

That's how long my personal PCLinuxOS system ran at the office before I had to shut it down. OpenSuSE? I just rebooted again, because of several apps locking up to the point that I couldn't kill them, even with root and kill -9 <PID>. Hey! At least OpenSuSE 10.3 boots 3 times faster than 10.2!!! Now I can see why!

I suppose I could downgrade to OpenSuSE 10.2, it ran okay, a bit sluggish but bearable. It's always one thing, just one thing... well back to work.