Been a RH user for years [Archive]

dlausevic

10-03-2005, 09:00 PM

I've gone from RH3 to Core 2. I upgraded to Core 3 recently and, unsurprisingly, I ran into a host of issues. Namely, it could see my soundcard but can't play sound.

Everytime I upgrade, I have irritating issues that will force hours of troubleshooting to fix. (ie modem doesn't work, sound disabled, can't see my spare drive, bla bla bla). I'm thinking of moving over to Ubuntu or Debian. I'm really slanting towards Debian. I downloaded the small business card image so I can do the net install. I'm not a hardcore user. I like to burn cd/dvd, listen to mp3, surf, email, write my papers, torrent... I'm just fed up with redhat.

So guys, Ubuntu or Debian? If yall have others, let me know.

tlyons

10-03-2005, 09:22 PM

I love Debian, but because of its mandate to only distribute free software you have to find and add proprietary codecs and software yourself to view a lot of internet content (Realplayer, Windows Media, etc).

If you want to run 100% real Debian but want those third party software pre-installed, I'd recommend Debian Pure (http://www.debianpure.com). It's Debian Sarge 3.1 with a very automated installer and all the goodies built-in.

For massive repositories (~15,000 applications), easy and stable version upgrades, and package installs/uninstalls that work flawlessly without dependency problems, Debian really can't be beat.

The downside of course is that the packages aren't cutting edge. Debian Project Leader Branden Robinson has pledged to get more frequent versions out the door, but who knows.

I think Ubuntu/Kubuntu is a fine distro, but I'm concerned that they're *not* concerned about maintaining compatibility with their parent. I used it for awhile on my second computer, then went back to real Debian.

- T.

dlausevic

10-03-2005, 09:59 PM

Thanks for the reply. I heard that Debian is sort of slow with the updates. With RH, I have synaptic to download stuff instead of apt-get. Is it as flawless (almost) in Debian as it is in RH? I also have downloaded a few speciality packages for sound alteration and such. Or are the people fiddling with apt repositories good about spreading it along through all the dists?

So debianpure has flash, java, and realplayer preinstalled?

One more note, even though I've been a linux user for years, I'm not very good at the command line and such. When I'd get through a problem, I'd forget in short order how I fixed it. I would usually have to recount my steps on this board for help or reinstall fresh. I'd love to be a power linux user but just haven't invested the time (which I don't have) in doing it.

I love Debian, but because of its mandate to only distribute free software you have to find and add proprietary codecs and software yourself to view a lot of internet content (Realplayer, Windows Media, etc).

If you want to run 100% real Debian but want those third party software pre-installed, I'd recommend Debian Pure (http://www.debianpure.com). It's Debian Sarge 3.1 with a very automated installer and all the goodies built-in.

For massive repositories (~15,000 applications), easy and stable version upgrades, and package installs/uninstalls that work flawlessly without dependency problems, Debian really can't be beat.

The downside of course is that the packages aren't cutting edge. Debian Project Leader Branden Robinson has pledged to get more frequent versions out the door, but who knows.

I think Ubuntu/Kubuntu is a fine distro, but I'm concerned that they're *not* concerned about maintaining compatibility with their parent. I used it for awhile on my second computer, then went back to real Debian.

- T.

mrBen

10-04-2005, 06:39 AM

If anything Debian's updates are more flawless than RedHats.

If you want a desktop machine, then Ubuntu is probably the way to go. It too has Synaptic all built in, so you shouldn't need to touch a command line. Personally I reckon that Ubuntu is a more seamless desktop experience than Debian - you _can_ make Debian into Ubuntu, but it takes a lot more work.

With regards to the compatibility issue, Ubuntu remains compatible with itself, which is fair enough. They contribute all their code back to Debian, and, IIRC, try to re-synchronise every 6 months. Mark Shuttleworth says a bit about this here (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth). In reality, most people have had little or no problems with this, as by far the majority of Debian packages _do_ work on Ubuntu.

crow2icedearth

10-04-2005, 07:27 AM

well i use the hardcored distro gentoo. and i also use slackware. two of my favorite distros. debian was cool while i had it installed. i like control over my system and what gets installed. if u like that try gentoo. you have total control over how it builds every package because it uses a system called portage. which let u configure how it compiles appz . redhats biggest problem was RPMS for me and way to commerial. i use to use redhat back in the day thou . version 4.0 - 6 .

to anwser your question i would go with debian. it has a great package manager and apt-get is very cool

tlyons

10-04-2005, 07:35 AM

With RH, I have synaptic to download stuff instead of apt-get. Is it as flawless (almost) in Debian as it is in RH?
Synaptic is just a GUI front end to the package management system. Synaptic is in Debian too, where it works as a front end to APT. So, installing and uninstalling will feel no different to you even if you switch.

I also have downloaded a few speciality packages for sound alteration and such. Or are the people fiddling with apt repositories good about spreading it along through all the dists?
I would be very surprised if those packages didn't already exist in Debian, but you can search to check.

http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages#search_packages

So debianpure has flash, java, and realplayer preinstalled?
For sure it comes with DVD capability, Flash, Java, and Mplayer pre-installed. And it uses packages from debian-unofficial.org (http://debian-unofficial.org/packages.html) which does include RealPlayer, Skype, etc. So, even if Real isn't installed by default, you can easily add it with Synaptic.

One more note, even though I've been a linux user for years, I'm not very good at the command line and such.
You don't have to be a power user to use the command line. I mostly use the command line to install/uninstall because my computer runs Synaptic very slowly. But it's easy. To install with the command line, open a console, su to make yourself root, search for the package you want, and install it.

todd@Laurier:~$ su
Password:
Laurier:/home/todd# aptitude search realplayer
i realplayer - RealPlayer 10 based on the open source Helix player
Laurier:/home/todd# aptitude install realplayer
(etc.)

But like I said, Synaptic in Debian does the same as in Fedora, so stick with what works for you. :)

- T.

crow2icedearth

10-04-2005, 07:36 AM

For massive repositories (~15,000 applications), easy and stable version upgrades, and package installs/uninstalls that work flawlessly without dependency problems, Debian really can't be beat.

The downside of course is that the packages aren't cutting edge. Debian Project Leader Branden Robinson has pledged to get more frequent versions out the door, but who knows.

the only distro that can beat debian is gentoo . and gentoo is cutting edge having masked packages that can be compiled.

tlyons

10-04-2005, 07:43 AM

I don't think this thread is about which is the best. He mentioned he's not comfortable with the command line, so Gentoo is out of the question. For him, an automated installer and pre-compiled packages are a must.

- T.

Hayl

10-04-2005, 09:41 AM

This post should have been posted in the ".iso confused" forum with other distro-opinion-related posts. The "Installation" forum is for real technical problems/issues with installs, not for trolling for opinions.

<moved>

dlausevic

10-04-2005, 03:17 PM

Sorry Master Moderator. I'll slap myself silly when I get home from work.

As for the other responses, thank you and thank you. Yall did cover the bases. Now I'm still decisionless. However, I have downloaded the credit card ISO for debianpure so I"ll give that a go. Now to find a spare drive to test things. I'm not going to blow out a perfectly running outdated fedora without testing it.

This post should have been posted in the ".iso confused" forum with other distro-opinion-related posts. The "Installation" forum is for real technical problems/issues with installs, not for trolling for opinions.

<moved>

blackbelt_jones

10-04-2005, 04:23 PM

I heard that Debian is sort of slow with the updates.

Here's how I understand it. Somebody let me know if I got it wrong:

There are three versions of Debian-- stable, testing, and unstable. The testing and unstable versions are updated constantly, but before Debian calls something "stable", they make damn sure of it, and then they don't mess with it. When Debian calls a release "stable", you can pretty much bank on that.

Right now, we're early in the release cycle... "Sarge" used to be the testing version, and became the official, stable version just a few months ago. Once a version becomes stable, it's hardly chaged at all, outside of security updates. Right now, I would venture a guess that most debian users are running sarge (I know I am), but a year or two from now, as the testing version (don't know what its called) gradually becomes more polished and stable. and Sarge is starting to look a little long in the tooth, more and more users will gradually make the switch to testing. By the time Sarge became the stable version, practically no one was using the previous stable version "Woody".

Without telling my boring stories, I've always found Debian to be more straightforward and less annoying than Ubuntu, which does have a very pretty gnome desktop. If you prefer KDE I think Debian would be a lot easier, but if you like Gnome it doesn't matter. Flexibility? Debian. Ubdates? Ubuntu. Ease of use? I say Debian, but many others disagree. Funny name? It's a toss-up.

For everyday home desktop and the functions you mentioned, either will do. A few year's experience with Red Hat should give you all the background to negotiate any difficulties you'll have to learn your way around.

tlyons

10-04-2005, 05:46 PM

I have downloaded the credit card ISO for debianpure so I"ll give that a go.

Credit card ISO? I'm not sure what you've got, but you should have the version .4 ISO from here:

http://piorek.net/pub/LINUX_DISTROS/Debianpure/

- T.

blackbelt_jones

10-05-2005, 02:25 AM

Credit card ISO? I'm not sure what you've got, but you should have the version .4 ISO from here:

http://piorek.net/pub/LINUX_DISTROS/Debianpure/

- T.
Actually, I think it's called a "business card" iso.

Sounds like you're going with Debian. I salute you, brother!

One more thing about Ubuntu, if no one's mentioned it. When you install it, it doesn't have a root account. It's a security measure. You're supposed to sudo everything. I always had a hard time getting my mind around it -- but if you don't like it, it's very easy to fix. If memory serves, you just assign it a root password, using the same command you would use to change your root password in any other distro.

tlyons

10-05-2005, 11:07 AM

Yeah, you can enable the root account and password easily. Type 'sudo passwd root' and enter a password for the root account.

I was really annoyed with Ubuntu's 'sudo' design, even though I understand it's to prevent people from staying as root. I prefer to open a console, type 'su' and perform a number of admin tasks in a row, and revert back to regular user with 'exit'.

- T.

dlausevic

10-05-2005, 02:52 PM

Well I got the credit card image burned and used my usual windows drive as a test bed. I fell asleep during the initial download of the base configuration, then shutdown during the reboot. Had to hit the sack.

I can't wait to see how it runs.

Meanwhile, I figured out why my cdrw and dvdrw drives weren't being seen by the burning software in redhat. It turns out the permissions weren't set to allow software to see them. once those were changed, I was burning like a madman.

That was one headache I took care of.

I will post my feelings about debianpure when it's all done and set.

kittles01

10-05-2005, 04:54 PM

tlyons,

You can get the same functionality from sudo.

Just open a terminal and type sudo -s. You can run as "root" and when finished type exit to return to user mode.

Sepero

10-05-2005, 11:59 PM

Synaptic was originally created on Debian. Debian has always had the best package managing system(though gentoo might have a slight upperhand). You can tell by the copy-offs: synaptic and apt4rpm(for redhat), and slapt-get(for slackware).

Anyway, Ubuntu is basically a cleaned up version of Debian unstable every 6 months, so I say go with Ubuntu.

dlausevic

10-06-2005, 12:25 AM

Well I'm writing this from firefox on debianpure.

It was a smooth, if not long, install. But I chose the netinstall because I'm simply too lazy to download full iso images and installing off discs. And I like the idea of only downloading what I needed.

Now, it didn't detect my video card, so I need to find a way to fix that so I can get more than 800x600. Mind yall, I knew that stuff before. Like other things, I lose it if I don't use it. So it's time to relearn stuff. :eek:

dlausevic

10-10-2005, 02:16 AM

Well, I followed the directions on debianpure's site on how to get my video to output correctly, but it led to x crashing. So, I'm going to use this as an excuse to use ubuntu. I had forgotten that I had ubuntu already. When it first came out, I requested some cd's of it, and got a stack of ten discs to make it worth sending. I gave out all the copies but one. Now that I have a free drive, I'm going to give it a shot. I"m sure it's outdated to hell, but that's what broadband is for.

Lets see what we can do. Muahahahaha

I'm slowly getting my command line skills back up to par.

dlausevic

10-10-2005, 04:31 AM

Ok. I just sat through the 1.5 hour download of the updated packages. It was a very smooth install, no snags whatsoever.

I like the color theme and overall sound configuration of the gnome desktop, but I'm a KDE guy so... I'm going to download it once apt-get is updated. WOOPS, no KDE in the repositories. DAMN.

Looks like I should've downloaded the iso for kubuntu. That or I'll just gamble with the pure download of KDE from the official site and see how problem free my install will be. /crossfingers.

To answer the question about the business card cd iso, it was in the install instructions for debianpure. You use the business card disc to install up to the apt-get config part, then you swap discs with a second cd with apt-get install scripts utilizing the unofficial repositories. So I did end up with debianpure. As I laid out abover, however, I had a headache dealing with video configuration. This problem didn't exist with ubuntu, but I don't like gnome all that much so....

Using konstruct for kde. Time to crash. I hope kde installs flawlessly.

/crossfingers

blackbelt_jones

10-10-2005, 07:04 AM

Sepero

10-10-2005, 07:24 AM

Looks like I should've downloaded the iso for kubuntu. That or I'll just gamble with the pure download of KDE from the official site and see how problem free my install will be. /crossfingers.Don't do it!

Just edit the file /etc/apt/sources.list

There will be a line for the "universe" packages. It is commented out with a #. Delete the # at the beginning of the line and apt-get update. You should be able to get kde then.

tlyons

10-10-2005, 07:29 AM

sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop

tlyons

10-10-2005, 07:31 AM

(unless you only have 4.10 installed, in which case I think you need to dist-upgrade to Ubuntu 5.04 before you can use the Kubuntu (KDE) desktop).

tlyons

10-10-2005, 07:36 AM

Wow, how long has this been going on?

It's very recent. Version .2 was the first release I remember hearing about, and it only came out near the beginning of July.

- T.

tlyons

10-10-2005, 07:46 AM

Just open a terminal and type sudo -s.

True, and I guess that's useful for people wanting to hang onto sudo, it's just not for me. For my money, sudo makes it easier for kids to mess with things, not harder -- "su" is shorter to type and completely password protects functions that only I need. No-one needs "pseudo"-admin powers at my house (except me). ;)

- T.

dlausevic

10-10-2005, 12:41 PM

teehee. The embedded sudo conversation is so cute. I have to agree, though, it is a hassle to use. I'm a 'su' fan myself. Probably because I'm so damned used to it.

I'll use the kubuntu-desktop thing on apt-get then. Because when I woke up this morning, I found that KDE had nothing but errors installing. What a fricking headache. Just install already!!!

blackbelt_jones

10-11-2005, 12:48 AM

If there's anything in the world I ought to be able to do by now, it's install Debian, and Debian Pure uses a variation of the installer program that is familiar to devotees of debian and ubuntu alike. I should have been able to do it in my sleep... but my first attempt at installing DP was a pure disaster. I'll spare you the details-- but in the end, I booted into a pure black screen. Not only that, but I was watching for the prompt to install GRUB to the root partition, and I don't think I got one. So grub was installed to the MBR, wiping out my boot configuration. Bummer.

It's a great idea, but I have to report that Debian Pure doesn't seem quite ready for the general public yet.

Sepero

10-11-2005, 02:05 PM

dlausevic, it not gonna work. Do it the easy way - do it the Debian way. apt-get

dlausevic

10-12-2005, 01:12 AM

I installed kubuntu while getting ready for work. Took 20 minutes max. It was sweet. NOt a single problem. Everything works. I just had to add a line in fstab for my ntfs drive inside. Great. I'm still not a fan of sudo. I will be testing core 4 (doubt i'll stick with it since i really don't want to recompile a kernel just for ntfs and dvd support) and suse. The top contender to date is kubuntu though.