should i be seduced by apple? [Archive]

gehidore

01-19-2005, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by tucolino
been considering getting a notebook. lately, i have been getting a good feeling about choosing an ibook over any other x86 laptop. i wanna give osx a try. seems like most of the linux apps i would want there are ported anyway. in any case, if i dont like osx, i could always put gentoo on it.

besides the price being usually higher, does anyone have any good arguments as to why i should NOT get a ppc notebook? of course, if you have reasons why you like yours ibook or powerbook, or why it is a good idea to get one, those are welcome too.

thanks,

tuco

I have used both x86 and ibook laptops/notebooks, and personally I feel the ibooks hold up better and "do things" faster... this is of course, by opinion (and I hate hate hate apple most of the time)

I would personally hold an 800Mhz G4 ibook up to a ~1.7-.2.0Ghz(non celeron) x86 Laptop.

I am actually going to borrow some money from blobaugh and purchase the 12" 1.2Ghz 256MB 30GB model, by friday I hope.

ciphrix

01-19-2005, 12:58 PM

I have a 700Mhz G3 iBook and I just bought a 2.0 Pentium M Asus M6BNe laptop. Granted, the Asus is much newer and faster, but I like it so much more than my iBook. The iBook is okay, I just have some issues with the OSX interface functionality wise. Also, being that my iBook is a couple years old... when I decided I wanted an Airport card for it to connect to my home network a couple months ago, I ended up having to buy it off Ebay used for much more than it would've cost new, since they decided to stop distributing them. I've had the same problems with hardware for my iPod (it's a 1st gen). So I have some gripes about their hardware support as well. Overall I'm not a big fan of Apple. I don't hate them, and they can be fun/good at times but if it was up to me I'd stick with the x86 platform. These are just some of my personal opinions from my experience. Take it as you will.

hard candy

01-19-2005, 02:03 PM

Look at what happened to Snow White.

Parcival

01-19-2005, 02:40 PM

I bought my powerbook a month ago, I never had a Mac before. Here we go:

Reasons for buying a powerbook:

OSX is Unix - a lot more stable and secure than Windows.
No hassle because of the "windows penalty fee" and getting your money back when buying a new laptop.
Most hardware supported out of the box.
Most Linux apps are ported to OSX.
Package managers like portage and fink run in OSX.
If you don't like OSX, Gentoo is installed in no time.
More commercial games available while all your favorite free games are available, too.
With Linux, I was tinkering too much with my system instead of getting work done - now I leave the system alone.
Students' discounts - in my case 33% of the regular value.
High quality hardware.
It looks cool.

Reasons against buying a powerbook:

OSX is less secure than most Linux distros (more services turned on, public shares active, kernel vulnerabilities). Since Linux users generally know what they're doing and activate additional safety options, the level of insecurity isn't that much higher - and hardly close to the one in Windows.
Linux offers a lot more customization and options - with OSX, you have to do it the Apple way (at least in the GUI - in the terminal you have more freedom). Aqua looks nicer, but I miss KDE's many options.

BTW, mrBen, there's an OO build already that runs in Aqua:

http://www.planamesa.com/neojava/en/index.php

Conclusion:

I really like my powerbook and enjoy working with it, although there are things I miss from the Linux world. While I used to think that Mac computers are piles of junk, my impression has turned into a very good one. However, I'm still veeery far from being a religious Mac advocate.

Hmse

01-19-2005, 02:52 PM

I'll second what Parcival said.

ZenelithCalling

01-19-2005, 04:27 PM

$.02
I'd third what Parcival has written. I've got a 500Mhz G3 Powerbook (yeah baby, its all about the Power :D ) runing OSX. Sure its not the fastest thing on the block, but I like it. It does what I want it to do fine, surf, word/spreadsheet processing, email, muzak, etc.

If you plan on installing Fink, you'll probably need to install the X11 discs that should come with it, IIRC.

gehidore

01-19-2005, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Parcival

Conclusion:

I really like my powerbook and enjoy working with it, although there are things I miss from the Linux world. While I used to think that Mac computers are piles of junk, my impression has turned into a very good one. However, I'm still veeery far from being a religious Mac advocate.

I'm going to put gentoo (or freebsd if possible, I still need to research that) on mine when I get it.

tlyons

01-19-2005, 06:31 PM

This "study" was widely reported on dozens and dozens of websites:

Mac OSX most secure OS, Linux least (http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/computing/2004/0411031104.asp)

I'd like to hear some educated critique about the study, if anyone has some to offer.

Original study link/source is here (http://www.mi2g.net/cgi/mi2g/frameset.php?pageid=http%3A//www.mi2g.net/cgi/mi2g/press/190204_2.php) if the above link disappears. Or, just Google the phrase "OSX most secure OS".

- T.

sharth

01-19-2005, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by tlyons
This "study" was widely reported on dozens and dozens of websites:

Mac OSX most secure OS, Linux least (http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/computing/2004/0411031104.asp)

I'd like to hear some educated critique about the study, if anyone has some to offer.

Original study link/source is here (http://www.mi2g.net/cgi/mi2g/frameset.php?pageid=http%3A//www.mi2g.net/cgi/mi2g/press/190204_2.php) if the above link disappears. Or, just Google the phrase "OSX most secure OS".

- T. That survey was based on the idea of only counting sites that were manually hacked into. It didn't count viruses or worms rampantly spreading around the internet.

Personally, I like my iBook, but as I always point out, the wireless card is not supported by linux. If you're in it for the mac os as well though, then go for it. Atleast go down to an apple store and play with the computers for a bit.

gehidore

01-19-2005, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by sharth
Personally, I like my iBook, but as I always point out, the wireless card is not supported by linux. If you're in it for the mac os as well though, then go for it. Atleast go down to an apple store and play with the computers for a bit.

what are the specs/distro on your ibook?

GnomeProject

01-19-2005, 07:13 PM

I'd have to admit I haven't played this much with a computer, and had it be such an integral part of my life until I started fiddling with Linux. Again, this is only my $0.02, but I feel I am a lot more productive with my MAC OS X based laptop than I was with my Linux laptop. Furthermore, it feels so fast, and runs a lot smoother than any x86 based machine I have ever used before and I've used a lot of them. I recently discovered darwinports and virtually have all Linux software I could want at my fingertips and furthermore, who says you have to abandon your Linux desktops/laptops. I didn't. I just get a lot more done with my Powerbook and when I want to tinker, I can tinker on here, and also still tinker on my Linux boxes when I want to... I also 4th what Percival (thinks that how you spell) had to say. In my mind, the money was more than worth it!!!!

sharth

01-19-2005, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by gehidore
what are the specs/distro on your ibook? 1ghz, 512mb ram (i think... it's not here to check), and the airport express, and the rest is pretty much standard.

and as a note to darwinports, i've always used an alternate program called fink.

gehidore

01-19-2005, 08:18 PM

Just purchased

12" ibook
256MB ram
30GB HD
Airport (didn't need it but wth)
Combo drive

1023 after tax :/ and that is with a student discount...

GnomeProject

01-19-2005, 09:03 PM

Welcome to the "family."

gehidore

01-19-2005, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by GnomeProject
Welcome to the "family."

I'll give an update when I get it, I was hoping for friday but it seems apple uses some sucky service and likes to overcharge for the shipping. So it seems i'll be waiting for the next 1-2 weeks :(

You're trying to build a cluster ehh?
What types of boxen are you looking for?

I have in my reach ( a friend wishes to sell ) ~10 or more

166Mhz
1-2GB
32MB ram
~60$ (or less) per machine

GnomeProject

01-20-2005, 12:41 AM

I am probably gonna get 10-20 boxes wholesale from a company I know in Northern VA. They are the low profile, small dell boxes, with 1ghz PIII's in them, 256mbs of RAM a piece and they sell for about 50 bucks a piece. They are about 12" by 12" by 4" so they'll fit quite nice together. Thanks for the offer though, but I am looking for people with experience setting them up, more than I am for equipment. Ohh and, why didn't you just go to an apple store?

gehidore

01-20-2005, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by GnomeProject
I am probably gonna get 10-20 boxes wholesale from a company I know in Northern VA. They are the low profile, small dell boxes, with 1ghz PIII's in them, 256mbs of RAM a piece and they sell for about 50 bucks a piece. They are about 12" by 12" by 4" so they'll fit quite nice together. Thanks for the offer though, but I am looking for people with experience setting them up, more than I am for equipment. Ohh and, why didn't you just go to an apple store?

And I told this guy nobody would pay 50 for that crap :p

Here is why I didn't go to a mac store

http://www.anomalum.com/pgs/random.php

Parcival

01-20-2005, 04:56 AM

There was an interesting presentation at the 2004 CCC congress on OSX and security. You can still get the the slides as a PDF file (http://www.ccc.de/congress/2004/fahrplan/event/218.en.html).

tucolino

01-20-2005, 05:09 AM

wow... just getting back to the office to check the thread. didn't expect so many replies. thank you all. i was expecting negative responses, as this is a linux forum, which is natural. this is ok though, as i was looking for the point of view of linux users that have gone to osx. i am not planning on leaving linux. my main desktop will still run it. personally, i don't think it could hurt to be at least proficient in another os. If i can keep using some of my favorite linux apps on osx, it might be the best of both worlds... what do you think? For all those that have gone to ppc and keep osx (as opposed to installing a ppc linux distribution) what are some of the linux apps you still use on osx? For those that go to a ppc distribution, what made you switch? Was it that osx didn't give you many choices or that it was inflexible?

I guess like all things, I would have to dive into it to really get the feeling of it. However, all your comments really help. Thanks again. Keep em coming if you have more.

I still have some time to make my mind up. i am planning on buying my notebook when i go to the states in march (cheaper than in europe, and euro is stronger now, which helps a bit).

Parcival, thanks for your post. Concrete points. ç

gehidore, good to hear you went with it. Keep me posted on your experiences please. If you kept osx... If you installed a distribution...

Sharth, good to hear you are more productive with it. I probably will tinker with my notebook a bit, but i want it mostly for the basic things. i have the desktop to mess with. I know myself though, I will probably end up messing with the notebook as much as the desktop.

tlyons, thanks for the study.

ZenelithCalling, thanks for the tips.

hard candy, "Look at what happened to Snow White" :)

CaptainPinko, good point about wine. however, the only time i really used wine was to open word documents that did not show properly in open office. if anything, i would think that any potential windows app that i would like to run in linux, there probably is a mac version.

ok... thanks again all.

tuco

mrBen

01-20-2005, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by Parcival

BTW, mrBen, there's an OO build already that runs in Aqua:

http://www.planamesa.com/neojava/en/index.php

There always _was_ a Mac build of OO.o - you can download it from OO.o direct. However, they have now announced that support for aqua is being dropped for the 2.0 version (not yet released).

Parcival

01-20-2005, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by mrBen
There always _was_ a Mac build of OO.o - you can download it from OO.o direct. However, they have now announced that support for aqua is being dropped for the 2.0 version (not yet released).

Yes, this is correct, but the "official" OO.o port always needed an X-Server and will continue to need it as the support for Aqua got kicked out of the planning process.

However, it's not difficult to install an X-Server in OSX, you can download the software directly from Apple and install it with two clicks of the mouse.

You want to know what Linux apps I still use? Here's my list:

Firefox
Gimp (needs X-Server)
GPG
MPlayer
OpenOffice (needs X-Server) or NeoOffice/J
R
Thunderbird
VLC
Frozen-Bubble
ScummVM
Scrorched3D
Supertux
BZFlag
Xpilot
Tuxracer

OSX Apps I can recommend:

Adium (IM)
Candybar (change icons)
DISC-O (burn *.iso)
Pacifist (view and install archives)
Red Pill (Matrix Screensaver)
Stickies (Post-its for your desktop)
Taco HTML Edit
Tinkertool (unlock hidden system options)
Transmit (FTP program)

Of course I use all the terminal programs, too, e.g. screen, vim, etc. They come all preinstalled with OSX.

blackbelt_jones

01-20-2005, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by hard candy
Look at what happened to Snow White.

Not to mention Adam and Eve.

CoffeeMan

01-20-2005, 12:58 PM

Most of the previous posts have to do with the different views of OS X. I personally would stay away from ppc, because hardware that works with x86 is more plentiful. Example; if you have a PowerBook, (or an iBook) and you want wi-fi, you are going to have to buy an AirPort card. Now, if you are running Linux or anything else on an x86 laptop, you have the option of picking whichever damn wifi card you want.
When you buy Apple Hardware, all you can buy is Apple Hardware... they stick you that way, it is more important to have a choice.
But, to each his own.

Sepero

01-20-2005, 01:30 PM

GNU/Linux = Free Software
Mac And MS = Proprietary

I refuse to purchase anything from a company that has the same software motives as Microsoft.

(Just my little rant. You may now carry on per usual.)

madcompnerd

01-20-2005, 02:09 PM

I'd buy Centrino over iBook, mostly because the wireless is possible. Although, a used iBook with the working wireless might be nice. I think the Centrino can get better battery life with a similar battery and good power settings (from my rememberance, G4e dissipates more heat than Pentium M).

If you want OS X though, buy an iBook; AFAIK it's a fine piece of hardware. And they get warm in more ergonomic places than PC laptops.

GnomeProject

01-20-2005, 02:11 PM

sorry to hear about that gehidore...if you lived closer, I would have given you a ride! :-) But, still glad you are part of the MAC family.

And yes I know MAC is a propietary platform, like M$, but I like the platform and "technically" they aren't as evil (YET!) as M$ is...and maybe they might never become that way, who knows... It just allows me to be more productive is all, but it is also flexible enough to let me tinker like I do with Linux (I just don't have to tinker to get things to work, now it's more like icing on the cake like it should be...).

tlyons

01-20-2005, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by CoffeeMan
When you buy Apple Hardware, all you can buy is Apple Hardware...

If that's true, then it must apply to newer Macs? I have a Beige PowerMac G3 that came without USB or Firewire. I added both with the cheapest cards I could find that looked like they'd work, and have had no problems under OS9 or OSX.

- T.

tlyons

01-20-2005, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by GnomeProject
"technically" they aren't as evil (YET!) as M$ is...and maybe they might never become that way, who knows...

Oh, I dunno. ;) I like Mac, but when I read the chapter in Torvald's book where he met Steve Jobs in person, it reminded me of that Darth Vader / Luke Skywalker scene ("Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." etc.). Except, instead of leaping to his death, Linus told him in detail why the Mach kernel sucked. :D

- T.

hard candy

01-21-2005, 11:21 AM

http://www.linuxworld.com/story/47809.htm?DE=1
is a story on installing and running OSX, Ubuntu, and Yellow Dog on an Powerbook.

tucolino

01-21-2005, 08:07 PM

http://developer.apple.com/darwin/runningx11.html

for anyone interested in this thread... i just bumped into this today. it shows how to install x11 on osx and run some apps.

windowsfree

02-04-2005, 07:52 PM

I'm getting an iMac G5 next week, I'm getting rid of my laptop which I cannot load Linux on for 2 reasons;
1. Due to some rather hokie hardware I can't get any distro I've ever tried to work properly.
2. I am a graphic artist and photographer, I am trying to change over to using completely open source software to do my work and don't feel the Gimp is ready to fulfill my needs for editing digital photos, it's almost there but I do need to get my work done now.

My main system is running Linux and always will, but for my photo and graphic artwork I have to go with either Mac or Windows, considering I have lost more work than I care to mention using Windows Mac is an attractive system, although once better photo manipulation software is available for Linux, it'll be the cat's a**!

CoffeeMan

02-04-2005, 10:15 PM

timothykaine

02-05-2005, 02:52 AM

When I can get Nvidia drivers for a Mac, Ill likely switch. Every once in a rare while I will have to install Windows on a spare hard drive to do something, and Id much rather use Mac OS X as my secondary OS than Windows. And of course the hardware kicks ***.

Parcival

02-05-2005, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by timothykaine
When I can get Nvidia drivers for a Mac, Ill likely switch.

Okay, I haven't researched this, but are there really no nvidia drivers for Linux on a Mac? Part of the reason why I bought a 12" powerbook was because it has an nvidia graphics card so I figured it would be easier to install Linux after reading the "Yell at ATI" thread. :confused:

leonpmu

02-05-2005, 11:55 AM

OK, well I have been a very lucky man.

I have a P4 1.8 GHZ Notebook, an AMD 2400+, an AMD 1800+ and an iMAC 400MHZ
All of the above have 512MB RAM.

iMAC OSX (10.3.7)
2400+ Dual boot SuSE 9.2 and win2K
notebook same as above
1800+ win98 and SuSE 9.2

Of all of the above, I find myself mostly on the Mac, which upsets my wife because I got it for her LOL

I think OSX is great, especially when you put a real scroll mouse on it and it just works, scroll right click the works!!!

sharth

02-05-2005, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by Parcival
Okay, I haven't researched this, but are there really no nvidia drivers for Linux on a Mac? Part of the reason why I bought a 12" powerbook was because it has an nvidia graphics card so I figured it would be easier to install Linux after reading the "Yell at ATI" thread. :confused: The ones that nvidia provides are x86 only.

timothykaine

02-05-2005, 01:02 PM

Parcival

02-05-2005, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by timothykaine
The official drivers are only in binary, in x86 only. I suppose you could use the open source NV driver, but thats not the same. No gaming options with Linux on a Mac.

:mad:

templest

02-05-2005, 06:38 PM

should i be seduced by apple?Yes.

Sepero

02-06-2005, 08:00 AM

should i be seduced by apple?Bare with me for a moment. Let us imagine that proprietary is the equivalent of a pile of crap.

If I offered you some food covered in crap, that would be Microsoft, but not Apple. You see, because Apple has proprietary hardware too, that would be like offering crap covered in crap.

shadov

02-06-2005, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Sepero
Bare with me for a moment. Let us imagine that proprietary is the equivalent of a pile of crap.

Not everyone here agrees with that analogy.

Microsoft is a monopoly, Apple is not. Microsoft is trying to break open standards and replace them with their own proprietary technologies. Apple is not. Open standards are essential for opensource and free competition in IT field to survive.

If Apple had 90% market share they would be worse that Microsoft because they control both hardware and software. But they have something like 2% so no worries :cool:

Anything that eats into Microsoft's market share and weakens their monopoly is IMHO a good thing(tm).

Besides Apple makes really cool laptops. I prefer KDE over Aqua and I do all serious work on Linux desktop, but having a small low maintenance UNIX laptop to carry with me where ever I go is very convenient.

Sepero

02-06-2005, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by shadov
Anything that eats into Microsoft's market share and weakens their monopoly is IMHO a good thing(tm).Ahhh! But this is where I disagree with your logic.

In my humble opinion, I feel that Anything that eats into Microsoft's market share and weakens their monopoly and could never pose threat of a future monopoly is a good thing(tm).

StarTiger

02-09-2005, 11:13 PM

Before you lay down any money, do this:

Walk into your local major computer store (i.e. CompUSA, Computer City, etc)

Look around. About 90-95% of the store is dedicated to PC softeare, hardware, and accessores. the entire mac department is religated to 2 or 3 shelves in the back of the store.

next condiser this: in 2004 about 4.5% of all computer sold were apples. about 90% were p.c.'s (70% windows 20% linux)

So this means that you'll have a much easier ( and cheeper) time upgrading and getting software for a p.c. based system. Plus when you facter in the higher pricing of macs, you can get a p.c. just as fast for about the same price.

there's usually a reason why something sells a lot better than something else. it's because the p.c. platform is the standards for the vast majority of the computing world.

*ducks behind fireproof wall*

Sepero

02-10-2005, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by StarTiger
Look around. About 90-95% of the store is dedicated to PC softeare, hardware, and accessores.Where do you get these numbers?

rocketpcguy

02-10-2005, 06:32 AM

um, BAGHIRA!!

http://baghira.sourceforge.net/pix/ssp/shot10.jpg
http://baghira.sourceforge.net/pix/ssp/shot1.jpg

StarTiger

02-10-2005, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Sepero
Where do you get these numbers?

From walking though a number of computer stores accross the country and looking around. You might try this. And talking to the people who do the ordering for them.

sharth

02-10-2005, 04:42 PM

I'm more curious as to where these numbers come from...
Originally posted by StarTiger
next condiser this: in 2004 about 4.5% of all computer sold were apples. about 90% were p.c.'s (70% windows 20% linux)

StarTiger

02-10-2005, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by sharth
I'm more curious as to where these numbers come from...

Oh those, Time Magazine and the Wal Street Journal.

Parcival

02-13-2005, 04:47 AM

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20050213 :D

XiaoKJ

02-13-2005, 10:58 AM

again, anyone should. you can always run your linux apps on darwin anyway. it is a *nix.

then, you can use the video drivers for mac os X to do your job.

finally, mac os x runs faster on macs than the others. so why not?

gehidore

02-13-2005, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by XiaoKJ
again, anyone should. you can always run your linux apps on darwin anyway. it is a *nix.

Not true, many if not most apps run on OSX.
Originally posted by XiaoKJ

then, you can use the video drivers for mac os X to do your job.
Yes, but some ported apps/games don't use them all too well.
Originally posted by XiaoKJ

finally, mac os x runs faster on macs than the others. so why not?

That's funny, I could swear debian-ppc and gentoo-ppc run much faster on my ibook.

fatTrav

02-13-2005, 01:27 PM

My two cents...

I see the software difference as this: With OS X you get most, if not all of the linux apps you want/need PLUS you get some things like, oh, games, Microsoft Office, and some other good closed programs written by software vendors plus some really good Apple in-house stuff.

Besides, perhaps the biggest drawback to not using Windows is games. Throw that out and things are more even.

And for what it is worth, I just bought a new 17 inch powerbook...so yes I was seduced.

infiniphunk

02-13-2005, 01:35 PM

there's usually a reason why something sells a lot better than something else. it's because the p.c. platform is the standards for the vast majority of the computing world.

So I suppose by your logic McDonalds is a better restaurant than Red Lobster? :eek:

A friend of mine has been into PC's for a long time, has experience with windows, linux and now runs open BSD. He recently got a iBook and loves it. He's installed linux on it as well as open. I think now he's back to OSX on there, so it might be his personal preference for what he has on his laptop. His server still runs openBSD, though.

I tried OSX a bit, but couldn't find how to open a shell/terminal... I like the way OSX looks though. And the hardware was just...more sophisticated.

My other friend has this nice little iPOD, I brought the laptop to school(it has proMepis on it) we connected the iPOD through USB and I just copied all his mp3's to the laptop. It was so easy. It made me want an iPOD.

As for being seduced by Apple; hmm, that's pretty stong language. I think they make good products, but I also think the way that some people are religious about their MAC is a bit silly. Even worse though are those who cling to M$ because windows is "just more popular".

fatTrav

02-13-2005, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by infiniphunk
I think they make good products, but I also think the way that some people are religious about their MAC is a bit silly.

Yes, the worst thing about Apple is their users.

rocketpcguy

02-13-2005, 02:52 PM

i can run linux applications in osx?? how?

Sepero

02-13-2005, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by fatTrav
My two cents...

I see the software difference as this: With OS X you get most, if not all of the linux apps you want/need PLUS you get some things like, oh, games, Microsoft Office, and some other good closed programs written by software vendors plus some really good Apple in-house stuff.Wow! That's a great advertisement for Microsoft too!
Next, I think we should start singing praises to software patents.

Say NO to Proprietary Software, and YES to Free Software.

fatTrav

02-13-2005, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Sepero
Say NO to Proprietary Software, and YES to Free Software.

There is nothing wrong with proprietary software. But then I'm a professional (read paid) software developer for a fortune 20 company and it puts food on the table. Not to get too off topic but not all free software is worth the download/install...a lot of it is garbage. The amount of open source/free programs available and the amount of which that are worth promoting/using are totally different numbers. Software patents pay my bills I guess.

I think Apple has found a nice medium by incorporating the "underneath" part of their OS X from BSD and also allowing the user to either use (via fink or other mechanisms) the bulk of the Free software but also be able to use Microsoft Office or any other non-free program--which are almost always better than the open source program which tries to emulate the propriatory one.

Sepero

02-13-2005, 09:17 PM

Wow, you can get garbage for free? :)
Seriously though, a lot of proprietary software is garbage too.

If you think Apple and their patents are more "holy" than Microsoft, then I feel you are sorely mistaken.

fatTrav

02-13-2005, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Sepero
Wow, you can get garbage for free? :)
Seriously though, a lot of proprietary software is garbage too.

If you think Apple and their patents are more "holy" than Microsoft, then I feel you are sorely mistaken.

Yeah, you can get garbage for free. I think emacs is garbage and its free. (Actually it's not bad...I just really like vim). I never said all commercial/propriatary software is good. Some is, some isn't. Same with the free stuff. I support the best software, period, free/commercial/whatever.

I just wanted to point out that Apple has found perhaps the happy medium. Enough Unix to please the geeks and yet easy enough to have stuff "just work" out of the box.

nugget15

02-13-2005, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by tlyons
This "study" was widely reported on dozens and dozens of websites:

Mac OSX most secure OS, Linux least (http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/computing/2004/0411031104.asp)

I'd like to hear some educated critique about the study, if anyone has some to offer.

Original study link/source is here (http://www.mi2g.net/cgi/mi2g/frameset.php?pageid=http%3A//www.mi2g.net/cgi/mi2g/press/190204_2.php) if the above link disappears. Or, just Google the phrase "OSX most secure OS".

- T.
What ever type of unix you run is as secure as you know how to use it. If you know nothing about linux and do a plain full install a lot of stuff will be turned on depending on the distro. someone who has used linux for years and knows what he/she is doing then they will be able to lock it up a whole lot better.

Sepero

02-14-2005, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by fatTrav
There is nothing wrong with proprietary software. But then I'm a professional (read paid) software developer for a fortune 20 company and it puts food on the table...Software patents pay my bills I guess.They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-Benjamin Franklin

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that Suse, Xandros, and Linspire have found perhaps the happy medium. Enough Unix to please the geeks and yet easy enough to have stuff "just work" out of the box.

XiaoKJ

02-14-2005, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by gehidore
Not true, many if not most apps run on OSX.

Darwin is the *nix behind OSX. Thats why I said it.

But are the other 2 you suggested true? I don't have one myself so I do not know, but apps on OSX should run on the drivers nicely because they will be tunneled to the works isn't it?

Anyway, I believe one would still like Mac OS X on a Mac. debian-ppc and gentoo-ppc may be faster but its not native. You would lse many functions like the original graphics driver from nvidia. I think.

Update me on the news.

Originally posted by rocketpcguy
i can run linux applications in osx?? how?

Again, I stress that I don't have a Mac, but the underlying OS in OS X is darwin, a *nix, and thus venerable programs that can run on *nix should run on a Mac. Esp in a terminal emulation.

fatTrav

02-15-2005, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by Sepero
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-Benjamin Franklin

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that Suse, Xandros, and Linspire have found perhaps the happy medium. Enough Unix to please the geeks and yet easy enough to have stuff "just work" out of the box.

Anyone who thinks all commercial/propriatory software is bad isn't playing with a full deck, to be nice about it.

Without the software patents, there would be little money in the software industry. A lot of free software is written by professional coders in their off time or by students to gain experience. You cut the money involved you end up cutting the number of people who get interested in it and in turn write free software.

I don't think I'd give _any_ linux distro the title of "happy medium." Maybe, maybe, for a power geek they are easier to use or better. I've found some hardcore geek stuff difficult to do in OS X (editing /etc/hosts for one) but it is still a better mix than any distro. A working, fully developed/polished Graphical Interface and proper hardware support right out of the box. Gnome/Kde are sometimes useable but they aren't on the same level as Apple's.

I love linux as much or more than anyone on this forum, but it's not nearly ready. Most distros still feel very clunky and patchwork. I've yet to find something I can't do in linux and have learned about all I care to learn. Now I just want to enjoy my new seductress.

If you want to be able to run most linux applications, make sure X11 is installed (if you want a GUI) and you can use an apt-get like program -- fink -- to install/compile the program you choose. Google for "fink"

Sepero

02-15-2005, 11:10 AM

I think you are confused, FatTrav. With your "distros still feel very clunky and patchwork", you are obviously saying Linux ISN'T READY FOR THE DESKTOP.
I assume you've never read this:
http://justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131435&highlight=linux+been+absolutely+ready+for+desktop+ +for+more+than+years+now
or tried one of these:
http://justlinux.com/forum/poll.php?s=&action=showresults&pollid=668

IDC
...giving Linux a small but respectable 6 percent of the desktop market.

"Linux captured the No. 2 spot as desktop operating system in 2003,"
link (http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/08/02/HNbusinesscase_1.html)

And you keep coming to us with RUBBISH about "Without the software patents, there would be little money in the software industry".

Maybe I'm not playing with a full deck, but I know there are Millions of $$ being made today with Free Software. And if you can't figure out how to get a nice piece of that pie, you will become extinct like the dinosaurs.

(And yes, with my own pc repair/educational shop, I'm getting some of that pie too. And yes, it tastes better than Blueberry or Apple. ;))

PS.
Though, to be fair, I don't deny that there will probably be niche markets for proprietary software in the future. Just not among the common public. If you can get a job like that, you'll be very lucky.

XiaoKJ

02-15-2005, 12:33 PM

I agree to sepero. Open source will still be open source without those professional programmers as it is, after all, a community effort. just that it might be slower.

however, a professional programmer will not have the time to help out in linux anyway --- so the credit should go to those reaping profits out of open source and those tech support people who find that coding seems to suit them better, esp at times when they are waiting for the next call....

Finally, there has been this talk about the open source economic system whereby support would be paid for, not the original software like how M$ got to power. I shows how open source can power the future.

Lastly, professional programmers, in their code, shouldn't be working on code out of their scope isn't it? and isn't code at work enough to stress them out already?

Sepero

02-15-2005, 01:28 PM

XiaoKJ, I have almost no idea what you said, but I'm glad you agree with me. :p

CoffeeMan

02-15-2005, 01:55 PM

fatTrav, I agree with you (but I dont think you should ever call emacs trash, that is just disrespectful, it is Stallman's baby.) I agree that not all proprietary software is bad, what I like to do is support the model before I support the actual product, free software and open source software have come a long way because there are passionate communities and a little bit of buisness behind both, and the licenses behind open and free software leave potential that most proprietary software dealers couldn't achieve if they tried. I am talking about security, stability, and a handful of other things that companies like Microsoft don't truly emphasize. There was no such thing as proprietary software 30 years ago, and that is when UNIX and C came into fruition. I used to hate Apple and love Microsoft, but this was when I was about 11. The more and more I learn about Windows and the Microsoft EULA, the more and more I dislike the boys at Redmond. The more I learn how Apple Mac OS X and GNU/Linux and *BSD are all decendants of UNIX, the more and more I like them all.
I think that software is only as good as the people make it. And if everyone has the ability to put their hand in the pot, then more things get fixed, tweaked (for the better), and so on.
PS I love the avatar, I made one for my friend based on that picture, here it is: http://www.tipcrew.com/staff.html

fatTrav

02-15-2005, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by Sepero
I think you are confused, FatTrav. With your "distros still feel very clunky and patchwork", you are obviously saying Linux ISN'T READY FOR THE DESKTOP.
I assume you've never read this:
http://justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131435&highlight=linux+been+absolutely+ready+for+desktop+ +for+more+than+years+now
or tried one of these:
http://justlinux.com/forum/poll.php?s=&action=showresults&pollid=668

And you keep coming to us with RUBBISH about "Without the software patents, there would be little money in the software industry".

Maybe I'm not playing with a full deck, but I know there are Millions of $$ being made today with Free Software. And if you can't figure out how to get a nice piece of that pie, you will become extinct like the dinosaurs.

No, I'm talking about linux just in general. As a server or desktop. Compared to a BSD unix it feels very patchworked. I'm sure a lot of this is because each distro does things differently, but in the end any distro is just a collection of packages someone throws together. Unlike a BSD (FreeBSD for example) where everything is designed to work together and was developed together.

Those patents protect a company's investment. My company has billions invested in software for their business logic. That will NEVER be opened up and I doubt many large companies would ever give out any software freely if they can sell it to make some money. If you don't have a patent or anything protecting your product, and your product isn't support but the actual software, then how can you make money other than by altering your business model and focusing on the support side instead?

If I am wrong, point it out. If you make freely available your sole product then there is nothing stopping people from just taking your work.

I'd like an example of someone making "millions" off of open source software. Apple and IBM are the only companies that I can think of that would fit that category and IBM's linux related profits are most likely small. I'm sure there are some small web-firms making good money by using apache and linux servers and selling ecommerce solutions using osCommerce, but come on man.

The open source development model *is* better but it is only better because it's not governed by the financial bottom line and as a result things don't get rushed as bad. I changed this because I rethought it. I don't know how open source will do in the future. I do know there will always remain plenty of closed source just because businessess want to keep their secrets/logic to themselves because that is what gives them an edge on the competition.

Note: I called emacs "garbage" and not trash. And I was only joking, it's not that bad. I just vim better ;)

fatTrav

02-15-2005, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by XiaoKJ
Lastly, professional programmers, in their code, shouldn't be working on code out of their scope isn't it? and isn't code at work enough to stress them out already?

Not necessarily....as long as you get permission before you code, things are usually ok. Work sometimes likes that type of thing because it keeps your skills sharp and keeps you learning new things. Also code done during personal time is usually fun because it is something you want to do. I for instance work on software for my old university as a way to give back to them instead of being lazy and writing a check.

Hmm, yes, work is more than enough to stress you out. That's why we have alcohol.

Sepero

02-16-2005, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by fatTrav
No, I'm talking about linux just in general. As a server or desktop. Compared to a BSD unix it feels very patchworked.Let's get one thing straight. Although, it's roots are *bsd, we are not talking about *bsd, and it will Never see the desktop.

We are talking about Mac and GNU/Linux. And Compared to Debian, I say Macintosh feels very patchworked.

My company has billions invested in software for their business logic. That will NEVER be opened up and I doubt many large companies would ever give out any software freely if they can sell it to make some money.NEVER! I agree!

But think... did we ever need their code before? Um, no.
If they are selling it to the public, it will become extinct!

Their code will become replaced by FOSS. Just like IE is being replaced by FireFox this very moment. We are watching history be created right Now. The signs are right in front of you. Proprietary is being replaced by FOSS.

If you don't have a patent or anything protecting your product, and your product isn't support but the actual software, then how can you make money other than by altering your business model and focusing on the support side instead?Patents don't prevent the death of Proprietary software. They only prolong death. Don't believe me? Look as Sun Solaris.

Anyone that is smart enough to get into the support business at this early stage of the game will be making some good $dough, in the coming years.

On the other end of the spectrum, because software will be so widespread and inexpensive, hired programmers are going to become a dime a dozen. Competition in that market is going to become tooth and nail. (It's already happening.)

If I am wrong, point it out. If you make freely available your sole product then there is nothing stopping people from just taking your work.No, not all proprietary software will disappear. Yes, corporations will continue to have proprietary software with inhouse programming staff. For the simple reason that they want to keep code from their competitors.

My point is that, among the public sector, proprietary software will completely die.

I'd like an example of someone making "millions" off of open source software.Well, I was thinking collectively, like if you add everyone together. Perhaps I should have said billions. (I was being conservative.)

If you think there will ever be another "MS" type corp making money with Free Software, then you're only fooling yourself. Free Software is a product where the playing field is much more level, and everyone gets a fair chance.

I don't know how open source will do in the future. I do know there will always remain plenty of closed source just because businessess want to keep their secrets/logic to themselves because that is what gives them an edge on the competition.Exactly. And that is where proprietary software will continue to live. (Although, I question how "plentiful" that will actually be.)

BTW: Yes, emacs is pretty bad. For a FOSS program, it is way too much bloat. Who needs a webbrowser built into their code editor?
I prefer jed. It's like emacs without the bloat.

fatTrav

02-18-2005, 10:52 AM

Regarding "Macintosh feeling patchworked" ... compared to FreeBSD, which is it's "daddy" it is. The whole directory of /etc is not used by the OS and seems put there just so "sh*t will compile."

Some code will *never* be replaced by FOSS. I'd crap in my pants if my company moved to FOSS servers (BSD/linux) let ALONE start using FOSS code. Jakarta-Commons and Struts may be the extent of what FOSS code is allowed, but I don't even think they are used.

"Patents don't prevent the death of Proprietary software. They only prolong death." I don't disagree or agree with this statement. I can see it two ways. The only way proprietary stuff lives is in business-logic or the core components of a company's software. Either way let's hope this won't happen until I retire in 35 years.

"My point is that, among the public sector, proprietary software will completely die." I'd say yes with the exception of games. I think there will still be a market for them. But even then, I wonder if the FOSS groups have enough of the types of people to really elevate the FOSS. Graphic artists, UI Testers, Planners, etc.

"Anyone that is smart enough to get into the support business at this early stage of the game will be making some good $dough, in the coming years." Perhaps. Business will still throw money at buying good software, but that comes along with some sort of support. I think custom-software will return to the forefront of the industry.

I agree and disagree with a lot of your points. I'm just saying that linux and the bulk of FOSS just isn't ready for prime time use yet. It's come a long way but it needs to go a long way yet. Some FOSS projects have a "professional" feel about the code and related materials. Most don't however. I'm NOT saying the code isn't high quality only that when compared to the professional stuff I have seen, some of the FOSS is lacking.

Hopefully my seductress will get here today...

Sepero

02-18-2005, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by fatTrav
Some code will *never* be replaced by FOSS. I'd crap in my pants if my company moved to FOSS servers (BSD/linux) let ALONE start using FOSS code. I might pay to see that... nah. ;)
Honestly, I think you may be under estimating the growth of FOSS. The base of GNU/Linux alone is currently doubling about every 2 years.

"My point is that, among the public sector, proprietary software will completely die." I'd say yes with the exception of games. I think there will still be a market for them.Ok, you got me here. I agree with you on this(and most of your other points). FOSS programmers can produce commercial-like games, but they should never try to replace them. Just like FOSS programmers should never try to replace Movies or Music.

The reason is because the greatest strength of FOSS is being able to recycle code. Though, when it comes to games(, music or movies), people want fresh and new, not some recycled Duke Nukem.

Software won't be able to replicate human creativity for several more years. (Though, I recently heard that the speed of computer intelegence should reach that of humans around the year 2029)

As for FOSS being poor in quality, this is mostly Fud. Though you 'somewhat' do have a point. To find good proprietary software, generally all you have to do it see what is most expensive. Finding good FOSS can be more difficult because it has no sticker price.