Thinking about Installing Debian; Need Advice

[palsyboy]

Before I ask questions, I have to tell a disjointed story just to get things off my chest and clarify my approach:

I started off using Linux under the advice of my friend/mentor bbqBrain, who helped me along when I decided that I was sick of being abused by Windows XP. My only political activism, other than interpersonal dialogues, is in the realm of consumer advocacy, and I wished to learn a system that could save average users hundreds of dollars in software and provide them with a significantly more secure (and otherwise better) system. I also plan on getting my master's or PhD in ergonomics research/design, so computer usability is a high interest of mine. Thus, I immediately decided that I should learn Gentoo first, despite its challenges and against bbqBrain's advice. I figured, if I could learn Linux from the inside out, I could install suitable distros on others' computers, set them up for ease of use, and leave them be. If problems arose, I could do remote administration or at least point them in the right direction.

Well, let's just say that if one is not naturally gifted with computers and has never performed/read real code before, Gentoo is highly inappropriate. To make a long story short, the only way I got anything to work was by having bbqBrain install Gentoo for me, leave me with X basically working, and taking many frustrated phone calls from me. In the interest of mutual health and happiness, I decided it was time for a newbie distro.

So I started using SuSE 9.1. And so far, I've loved it. Regardless of lacking sound for almost three months, I loved YaST and found that most of my questions could be solved via google, and if that failed, everyone here and at the SuSE forums has been a great help. After experiencing several months of a stable, thoughtful system, I can never return to Windows again.

I did, however, run into some problems. I couldn't unlock my screen, my mouse wheel would only start working after using SuSE for several days and ending/starting KDE sessions, etc. I could live with those minor quibbles, but recently, Gmail started crashing Mozilla, so my primary e-mail account was out of commission.

I figured the screen locking thing was my fault and that I'd probably done something stupid to Mozilla. I googled the Mozilla problem, which turned out to be semi-common, and thought rather than trying to spend hours of time attempting to ask around for help, I'd just reinstall after backing up my documents, but not my settings, from my home folder everything to /opt, which I have as part of an extended partition for storing media.

So I invested two or three hours, reinstalled SuSE without wiping out /opt, got everything working fine, including the screen lock problem and Gmail, and then, for no discernable reason, Gmail crashed Mozilla without fail. This may, of course, be a problem with Gmail itself, as it's still in the beta stage.

I reinstalled again, changed minimal settings such as mouse pointer speed, and migrated my Documents folder back to Home, along with my old Mozilla mail folders and bookmarks, and everything worked fine, including Gmail. Nevertheless, after using the Internet for a short while, Gmail crashed Mozilla again.

I decided that maybe - what the hell - I'd just try Mandrake 10, and that's what I'm writing from right now. I'm leaving my home folder alone, and so far, Gmail's working okay (crosses fingers). But as I have to pay for updates, I don't plan on using it for long.

So here's where everyone's advice could come in handy: I'm thinking about installing Debian. I've really wanted to move on to one of the "big boy" distros for a while, as I've tasted the sweetness of Gentoo's portage system, and everyone raves about Debian's apt-get. I know I can't use Gentoo, as I'm still quite the n00b, but I was thinking about using Debian. The way I see it, I need to start learning the command line, etc. sometime, and I'd really like to use apt-get, anyway, as many seem to have almost a religious reverance for it. I've been looking around this forum, google, Debian.org, and Amazon (for install books). I mean, I have a limping system as it is, so I might as well learn something from my current frustration. The thing is, I have the only net access in the house for now, so once I'm in the middle of an installation, I'll have no net resources to help me along, and plenty of people seem to have a hard time getting Debian running, for all of its maintenance ease. I'm currently looking for a book to help with the install, but all of them and their companion user opinions are several years old, so I don't know if they're still relevant. I really need something outside of the net to hold my hand through the process, or else a very simple but thorough guide that I can print out (I have plenty of toner and paper, so length isn't an issue). So far, the best I've found is this (http://linux.simple.be/debian/install) . But I don't even know which disc "cd1" is. After all, I see sarge discs, net install discs, etc. Is there any book you're familiar with that would help me out here? I desperately want to learn and am willing to take the time, but I don't want a few weeks of downtime, and bbqBrain just started law school, so my local tech support is understandably out of commission. And on another point, many of the books out there come with older versions of Debian, so how hard would it be for me to modernize my system if I had an old version running?

I don't really know if trying Debian is a good idea considering my lack of knowledge, but I want to start somewhere. Hell, maybe SuSE's just fine, and I just keep making the same subtle mistake. Can someone help me out with tried-and-true resources that would still be relevant? Thanks for listening to my rant if you got this far. I welcome constructive criticism.

It's time to clear my mind and play some Advance Wars 2.

[fatTrav]

I went with the Debian Net install cd for "sarge" ... I don't recall where I found it, but I'd look it up if you wanted it. It installs a very _base_ system and you use apt-get to get everything you want. Well, not that base. it comes with a working x and kde/gnome if you do the full install. You just have to apt-get things like make, binutils, gcc, libncurses, and so on. It's not that base I guess on second thought. The Debian installer with Sarge isn't bad at all, either. I don't think you need a manual to get Debian installed anymore.

ANother thing about Debian is that the stable is very outdated. If you want like a "book and distro" combo, Suse, or the Redhat line would be a better choice. I'm sure Sam's Publishing has something. Maybe search Amazon for "Fedora Core" or something. I am quite sure there are some books at least publishd by RH.

The below books are general linux guides. They're quite good, but I don't know if they cover an install.
Gillay, Carolyn Z. Linux User's Guide. Franklin, Beedle & Associates, 2003.
Nemeth, Snyder, Hein. Linux Administration Handbook. Prentice Hall, 2002

Another "big boy" distro is Slackware. It's quit easy to set up from the installer--and it also comes with an online book about system admin stuff. A good resource.

I think you could get by without a book for an install of Debian or Slackware. It's connecting to the internet that I'm not sure about. I have a home network up here (dsl with a smoothwall linux router) and usually the installer will handle that for me.

HTH

[infiniphunk]

You should also consider Mepis or Knoppix and install Debian on you HDD from either of those. Just run the live CD of your choice and test out which one works better on your system. I found Mepis worked way better for me, I may do an install from it tomorrow if time permits...

[timothykaine]

If youre a bit squeamish about being a newbie new to the world of Debian, I suggest a HD install of Knoppix or Gnoppix (depending on if youre a KDE or GNOME fella).

[palsyboy]

Originally posted by fatTrav
I don't think you need a manual to get Debian installed anymore.
Hehe...apparently, you don't realize the extent of my ignorance on the subject of Linux. ;) I mean, I'm the guy who sometimes has a hard time with SuSE. :p

Thanks for the book recommendations. And what is the difference between Sarge and the install CDs? Is Sarge some sort of live eval?

Another "big boy" distro is Slackware. It's quit easy to set up from the installer--and it also comes with an online book about system admin stuff. A good resource.
Hmmm. I looked over the Slackware install stuff a while ago, and what I saw looked about as complicated as Gentoo's. I'll look over it again and see what I think now that I've had several more weeks of Linux experience under my belt. Of course, it might be worth my time to simply order their CDs. Would that perhaps make it easier?

infiniphunk and timothykaine: I have a copy of Knoppix sitting around here ready to be used, but how do I use it to perform an install?

As always, thanks to all of you for your help. This forum is a bad mofo.

[palsyboy]

I have my dad's box in my room now, as I'm trying to set it up for a WLAN. Since it's plugged into my router now, I do now have net support if my computer has to go down for a few days.

[fatTrav]

Slackware is damn easy to install. It took about an hour to get everything (including X) installed and configured, with little effort on my part.*

Gentoo has taken about 28 hours (stage 2) to get to the same level. And I'm only just now getting sound and stuff set up.*

* on my testing rig.

Slackware's installer will walk you through everything. The only thing I found I had to do after the install was to add my regular user to the following groups: wheel, audio, video, cdrom, and disks. That fixed all the perm problems I had when trying to listen to audio, play a dvd, stuff like that. Nothing terribly difficult, just took me a while to figure out how to solve those problems!

Oh, just download the cds unless you really wanna spend the $ (it is for a good cause...).

Knoppix is a live-cd distro. Just put the disc in and reboot. You have knoppix running. Installing on the hard drive...that I dont know.

[LAT]

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2016

I used the above site to help me with Debian (my first Linux installation). It took a few install attempts but I'm up and running (yaaah!).

I ended up deviating from the instructions as follows:
Getting to the main installation
Step 2 - Hit F3 (I think) and choose bf24 (for 2.4 kernel)
Going through the main installation cycle - Part III
Step 13 - Half the time my nic was not detected automatically. I needed to find my module to get it configured.
System Configuration - Part II
After Step 11 - #cd /etc/apt
#nano sources.list
change stable to testing (for sarge)
#apt-get update
#apt-get dist-upgrade
Installing XFree86 - Part II
Step 12 - "apt-get install kde" not wmaker (although I do like fluxbox on my laptop).

I hope this helps...I found it worth the effort!

lat

[fatTrav]

I forgot to answer this in my earlier post...

Debian releases updates very, very slowly (check out their page on distrowatch.com...the last "stable" release was last november and it still used a 2.2 series kernel). They are slow because they spend a lot of time testing each package before it is released in the "stable" branch. As a result, the sytem may be outdated but should be considered very stable. "sarge" is the testing version. These are apps that aren't in the "stable" release but are stable enough to be out of "testing" (testing is bleeding-edge). So, yes, "sarge" is like a live eval version--quite stable from what i've heard and my experiences with Debian Sarge.

[palsyboy]

Thanks to both of you for the encouragement and links. I've spent the past hour reading more information to compare both distros, and both of them sound sufficiently tasty. :D

I have some questions to compare them, though:

1. Is it possible to use Slackware with the 2.6.6 kernel or some other even-numbered one? I really need stability right now.

2. Would I be right in saying that Slackware will help & encourage me in learning Linux from the ground up, but with a simple installation process? I find the idea of compiling my own code inconvenient but informative, and as long as I have a basic running system with Internet access, I'm willing to put up with most other inconveniences for the sake of learning.

3. How do the two distros compare in terms of available packages? I mean, with Slackware, you can install pretty much anything from source and use Swarez to find dependencies, yes? What about for Debian whenever you find something you wish to use that isn't a package listed by apt-get? Or am I misunderstanding how these processes work?

Thanks again. I look forward to installing one of these as soon as possible. :)

[palsyboy]

Just missed ya...I was finishing up my post when you posted. :) That sounds good for Debian's stability, but won't there be lots of disadvantages to having an old kernel? Isn't it best for newer hardware to use the newest even-numbered release? :confused:

[fatTrav]

1. yes. i am using kernel 2.6.7 right now with slackware current. on the second install disc in /testing is some 2.6 series kernel with instructions on what to do. I decided to go to kernel.org and do it myself.

2. Slackware is harder than Suse/Mandrake/Redhat/Fedora to configure some things, but nothing that justlinux or G4L can't solve. Even still, pkgtool allows you to configure a lot of things. So you will learn a bit more by having to read conf files and man pages more often. Compiling software isn't that bad :^)

3. Debian has a lot more packages. A lot more. But I've yet to find any program (except dvd::rip) that swaret didn't have [or linuxpackages.net] or I coudln't install rather easily from source. I can use swaret to install prolly 90% of all the packages that I'd want and have it solve all the deps. I ./configure then make then checkinstall the rest. CheckInstall will create a Slackware compatible package (from the source after you ./configure it )and install it with Slackware's installpkg.

Debian, if something isnt' available via apt-get, you would prolly do the same and use Checkinstall.

Yes, there are disadvantages to useing an older kernel. Quite a bit. Newer hardware might not be recognized for one. There are other distros out there that derived from Debian and have more up-to-date packages. Might want to check them out. They'd have the best of Debian (apt-get) and none of the worse (slooow release cycles)

[LAT]

It comes down to a matter of preference. Sounds as though you have your net connect backup so you should have the room to experiment now. I'm a noob but my experience tells me Debian is harder to install but great once there. I just installed Suse on my other drive and will play with that. Next, Mandrake, Slackware, I want to see why people are so passionate about their choices.
Please don't feel abused if I didn't mention your distro.......I'll get there too
Can you dual boot? Setup Knoppix on one partition to have a working system then play, play, play on the rest of the hard drive!!!

lat

[infiniphunk]

I'm tellin ya, i just installed it from the mepis live CD, and it was very easy. Plus things on my comp are very insteresting now...in a good way! I've already installed stuff via apt-get, tho admittedly I have to update it somehow so it works better; did apt-get update and don't think it worked somehow. Good news is all my stuff is working, sound, peripherals, ...etc. Lots of stuff to do, but its good. And I got a GRUB bootloader now? Its cool.

[palsyboy]

Thanks for the posts, everyone. All of your input is greatly appreciated.

I've decided that really the easiest thing to do right now is to order Slackware 10 and its companion book, Slackware Linux Essentials, 1st Edition. This will leave me with ultra-quick installations in case I mess things up and need to reinstall, as well as give me convenient installs for friends' computers, etc. And since I can't give code, it'll give a little cash instead. :cool:

fatTrav: I look forward to using man more often and playing with configs. And compiling one's own code just seems to pure somehow, anyway. :p

LAT: I am completely with you on playing with different distros to see about choices. One thing I discovered many years ago was that if someone was very passionate about something, it's usually worth listening to what they have to say, if not actually trying it out onesself. One noteable exception is heroin. :D

infiniphunk: What do you prefer about GRUB over LILO? I personally have yet to develop a preference.

[mike3k]

Look at Libranet. It's fully compatible with Debian but it has a very nice installer & improved administration utilities. I haven't looked at the new Sarge installer, though, which is supposed to bring the same features to plain Debian.

Once Libranet is installed, it works just like any other Debian system.

[fatTrav]

LILO is the old guard when it comes to boot loaders. GRUB is prolly by all accounts better, but LILO works well enough. It really matters little which one you use. Slackware uses LILO so just go with that.

After about two years of GRUB and four months of LILO, I kinda like LILO better. For the simple reason that when you change /etc/lilo.conf you must re-run the lilo command. One of the things this does is let you know if the new settings will work. [No more spelling mistakes or giving the wrong name for a kernel image, things like that.] Both are quite serviceable, my recommendation is to go with whatever the distro uses.

[palsyboy]

Originally posted by mike3k
Look at Libranet.
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll probably end up doing so someday, as I plan to try many distros over the next several years.

Orginally posted by fatTrav
my recommendation is to go with whatever the distro uses.
Sounds like a good policy until I have some idea what the hell I'm doing. :p Thanks for the clarification.

[infiniphunk]

I had lilo when I was using Mandrake, and it showed windows as a boot option with linux, as well as some others I think. Now with GRUB it only gives me the options of mepis with 2.4 kernel or mepis with 2.6.5. Also offers memtest as an option. Windows isn't on the menu though, so I'll have the chance to explore how to get it back on the menu(ugh, I may yet need it for school in the fall, tho we'll see). I did apt-get update and it worked this time! Now I have been able to install several programs through it; I see now why people are nuts about it.
I'm still having a couple of small issues with this new system but I'm sure I'll be able to get it upt to speed in a few days.

1. My display does seem to flicker a bit, but it may just be the refresh rate. Dunno yet.

2. What previously was my /home is now elsewhere; its on its own partition(HDb2) and holds a lot of data. I can still acess everything on in though, now I got to mount and unmount those drives, its crazy! It's great!
I'll keep you guys posted(in this thread or in new ones) of any further misshaps, queries or adventures. And oh yeah its finally the weekend!!!!!!:D

[XiaoKJ]

But working with grub is soooooo easy...

I think it must have been designed as such :D

lilo looks cryptic to me, but people like JohnT of course has no problems with it :D

[palsyboy]

Hmmm. Thanks for the responses. The LILO vs. GRUB debate is something I've seen around from time to time. I'll pay more attention to it in the future.

For me, it shouldn't matter too much, as I have no need to load anything other than one Linux distro and no Microsoft code. :)

Good luck getting it going, infiniphunk. And hell yes for the weekend!

[palsyboy]

I forgot to add that I ordered this (http://www.linuxcentral.com/catalog/index.php3?prod_code=L000-254&id=C1CfoHeAvIoCi) and this (http://www.linuxcentral.com/catalog/index.php3?prod_code=B000-267&id=C1CfoHeAvIoCi) from Linux Central. I hope the CDs they sell are the same as the official Slackware ones, though I'm sure they don't come with the installation book. Hopefully, the book I ordered will include installation help, assuming I even need it, according to you guys. :) And hopefully, the 2001 publishing date won't affect its relevance too badly.

[jot-87]

what you could do is to install Debian/Slackware while keeping SuSE. That's what I've just done. That way I have a working SuSE distro while I can play around with Debain.

P.S. I've been using Linux for desktop use for about a year, and I found Debian Sarge quite simple to install. I downloaded CD 1 from here: ftp://ftp.fsn.hu/pub/CDROM-Images/debian-unofficial/sarge/

[palsyboy]

Thanks, but I'm not interested in dual-booting. Right now, I have my dad's computer to use for reference and e-mail, so I can safely run one distro at a time on my computer; if it gives me a hard time, I can always use my dad's until I get the wrinkles worked out. :)

[blackbelt_jones]

I really related to your post about wanting to empower people by helping them to install Linux. For this reason, I've thought a lot about what I'm going to say here.

It's been my conviction for a while that Debian is the perfect distro for newbies IF THEY CAN GET SOMEONE ELSE TO INSTALL IT FOR THEM. I mean, where is it written that you have to start with the most frightening, intimidating, and (in the special case of Debian) the most difficult task of all? Is there anybody in the world who started with Windows by installing the operating system? Find a Linux User Group. Find a guru who will do it for a pizza. Pay someone if you have to! It seems to me that if a newbie could just sit down to Debian, without the ritual ordeal of installing it first, Debian would be a lot of fun. Challenging, but not overwhelming, and, thanks largely to apt-get, rather easy to maintain.

If you can't find someone to install it for you, you might want to get your hands on a second computer. This will allow you to go find a Linux chat room (Check out irc.freenode,org,) and maybe get some real-time help from a nice geek while you're installing. One bit of advice that I would give you for installing debian (let me admit that I've only read about half the posts before me, so I may be repeating someone... its possible to bluff your way through the install. The debian text-based installer will ask you about fifty questions, and I still only understand maybe 45 per cent of them... but I guess, and usually I keep hitting the default, and it worked out fine.

And barring THAT, keep in mind that SuSE-- or Red Hat, which is what I currently run-- or Mandrake, or what have you, is no bar to learning how to run Linux from the command line. I would reccomend that you seriously consider learning at least a few line commands before you move to another distribution. Like you, I took up Linux because of the politics of open source... and that's still very real for me... but when I learned the command line was when I finally started to "get" Linux. That was when I started running Linux for the love of it, and not for my hate of you-know-who.

It took me almost two years to get around to using the command line. Don't make the same mistake I made.

I have more to say about this stuff, but I must go to sleep. Right now.

[palsyboy]

I respect and enjoy everything you said, blackbelt_jones. I also agree with all of it, including the command line stuff, which is one of the main reasons I wanted to move on to Gentoo, Slackware, or Debian. Until I can get off the GUI, I won't understand the system too well. Just waiting on those Slackware CDs to come in the mail now... :)

And as soon as I understand Linux well enough to set up others' machines for them with very little maintenance or learning on their part - the one with my dad's box is going pretty well - I'll start doing it on a larger scale with a good distro. And yes, Debian's reputation for low-maintenance is certainly intriguing. I look forward to the day I can help others save money and get a better OS.

[Fryguy8]

if you have the chance to now, install slackware instead of debian. They are quite similar, with 2 major differences that are blending:

slackware is more powerful to config, and follows more standards

debian has THE BEST package management system.

With slackwares package management getting better everyday, swaret and slapt-get are briding the gap between debian and slackware, get all the functionality and ease of maintenance of debian and the power of slackware in one package.

Now if only they would release an i686 version like arch-linux ;)

the only reason i'm still a debian fan is because it was my first distro and it's what I know well. Slackware felt awkward to me and I wasn't willing to take the time to adjust when things like gentoo are available.

[blackbelt_jones]

It's not a matter of distro. Every distro has a command line interface, and every distro has a GUI. What you need to do is learn how to use the command line to move and copy files around, and you'll pick up more by and by. You can use the command line in Slackware; you can use the command line in SuSe, Debian, Red Hat... it's not a matter of distro.

And it's not an either/or proposition. Linux lets you switch back and forth between GUI and CLI effortlessly, according to what feels most comfortable. The multiple vitrual desktops are especially well suited to that. You can approach a task from both interfaces at once, if you feel so inclined.

Palsyboy, more than anybody else I've ever encountered in this forum, you remind me of me. I see you as idealistic and enthusistic, tearing through every distro, making mistakes, having problems, and not being discouraged for a moment. I don't worry for a minute that you're not going to master Linux. Like me, you may look back one day, and ask yourself if you could have done it faster and easier. Speaking for myself, I don't know if I could have. I installed Mandrake, Red Hat, Storm, Debian, Slackware, Knoppix, Fedora, and SuSE. My duaghter made fun of me.... "You need to do something with Linux besides install it.", she said. Whatever. Somehow, it seems to be working, although I am still closer to newbie than to guru.

[fatTrav]

Slackware is one of the easiest distros do configure because every single app is 'pure'. By that I mean all the ./configure options are sane and everything gets installed into /usr/lib/whatever. Slackware doesn't do anything fancy. Problems with whatever package can be solved by going to whatever package's website and reading.

I'm currently playin with Gentoo on my main system. I about nearly fell over when I found that httpd.conf was broken up into 3 files in two locations. Though I'll give Gentoo's best aspect--their docs and forums--credit on helping me out with my apache problems. But still, a lot of distros to crazy things like that...do things their own way. Slackware doesn't and I really like that.

Just my two cents...

[palsyboy]

Fryguy8 & fatTrav: That's one of the main reasons I thought that Slackware would be good to try down the road (albeit not as soon as it's actually happening). I wanted to try a stripped-down Linux where I have to do most of the work myself after the install. And by "stripped-down," I don't mean it lacks in features, but rather, it has less proprietary components.

blackbelt_jones: Point well-taken. Once I have Slackware installed, I'll start making file-moving, permissions, etc. CLI exercises for myself (fear not: I realize this isn't distro-dependent; I'm just running Mandrake right now and don't feel like messing with anything until I've moved on to a semi-permanent distro). Thanks for the encouragement, as well. As for frustration, I do have some (http://www.justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132521) , but that's only because it's harming someone else.

[blackbelt_jones]

Here's a great tutorial for learning Linux basics; it's the LPI from IBM LPI exam prepe course from IBM Developerworks. This is where I learned the basics of the command line.

http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/edu/l-dw-linuxlpi1-i.html

The nice thing about Slackware is that it's fairly easy to install, though God help you if you need to add any applications. In this respect, it sort of the opposite of Debian, which is hard to install, but adding applications is as simple and easy as can be. One thing's certain; SLackware is real Linux!

[fatTrav]

linuxpackages.net (http://linuxpackages.net) and swaret make installing apps a lot easier. it's not difficult to install things with slackware, you just need a bit more patience and a bit more of G4L than in other distros.

[palsyboy]

Originally posted by blackbelt_jones
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/edu/l-dw-linuxlpi1-i.html
"Oooh...red snapper...very tasty!" - Kuni :D

Thanks! :)

Originally posted by fatTrav
it's not difficult to install things with slackware, you just need a bit more patience and a bit more of G4L than in other distros.
I have patience in spades, so that's not a problem. As for g4l, I'll have to do some reading.

I got Slackware 10 and its companion book in the mail on Thursday, and between work, trying to get contact lenses to stay in my eyes, and many hours spent fixing people's Windows machines, I've found enough time to get halfway through the book. I'm using Post-Its whenever I run into questions, and once I'm finished reading, I'll read up on all my questions. And for whatever's left over, I'll post them up in the Install sub-forum. Hell yeah. So far, reading Slackware Linux Essentials has been quite enriching. After I have a basically running Slackware machine, I'll restart my Running Linux, 4th Edition reading, and finish up with that LPI prep course for dessert. :)

[palsyboy]

Well, I'm finished reading the book, and I've put my install questions up here (http://www.justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132878).

I'm excited. :)