Linux is for heroes- ready for the desktop now.

[hard candy]

After reading various articles scattered around the web and linked to on various forums, I'm wondering-
All these articles about "Linux Not Ready For The Desktop"- when will it be ready?
1. When there is a Linux version of Half Life 2?
2. When you can bank online ?
3. When Shockwave has a Linux version?
4. When ATI has a click-to-install version of their drivers?
5. When anything Office2004 puts out, Linux can open in a proper format?
6. When DX9 runs in Linux?
7. When PocketPC's will synch with Linux without compiling anything?
At what point is Linux "ready for the desktop"? At what point can developers stop saying "How do I make this work like Windows".
I believe it is ready.
Enquiring minds want to know. ;)

[Icarus]

1. When there is a Linux version of Half Life 2? Never, they won't even give us Half-Life...they are married to MS and like the "It's our, pay for it and we don't like extra work" mentallity
2. When you can bank online ? I can, use Harris Bank, works great in Linux (except the 'export to quicken' option, but I don't use it)
3. When Shockwave has a Linux version? YA!!
4. When ATI has a click-to-install version of their drivers? How about when ATI releases drivers that work?
5. When anything Office2004 puts out, Linux can open in a proper format? We're getting very close
6. When DX9 runs in Linux?You should be slapped for even thinking such a thing!
7. When PocketPC's will synch with Linux without compiling anything? That will happen once the PocketPC's release some decent Linux software...or any at all for that matter


I use Linux at home everyday for everything I do. The desktop is there, but most people have the problem thinking that a desktop should act like Windows (or a Mac even). Once new users get the "Linux is not Windows" way of thinking it gets easier for them to understand.

[blackbelt_jones]

I think that the title of your post says it all. Linux will be "ready for the desktop" when it can be operated by "wimps"-- that is, ordinary people who don't want to read a computer manual. You don't have to read a manual to run Windows! Those who don't find "reading the fabulous manual" to be about as much fun as-- and a lot more time-consuming than-- a prostate exam (or a mammogram if you're a woman) won't fully appreciate what a solid endorsement that is.

Recently, I've heard Eric Raymond on "the Linux show" speak forcefully about the need to clean up linux interfaces, and I guess he's right, though the real problem for the general user is probably installing apps and resolving dependencies. Linux is shaped by its users, and so I think the change will come naturally as more non-geeks are brought into the tent.

But that's not going to happen until some of you guys drop this totally bizzare macho-geek attitude. I am really really tired of being talked down to by some arrogant SOB who thinks he can walk on water because he watches his porn from the command line. The other day I was in an IRC chat where my choice of distribution was soundly mocked, and the only answer that I could get to a simple question was "Install Debian". And of course, I was given yet another clever variation of "RTFM" -- a catch-phrase that I feel pretty certain has done more to impede the growth of Linux than anything Microsoft's ad department could ever hope to come up with. It was all pretty humiliating, but I guess it serves me right for going to a chat called "#linuxbeginner".
:rolleyes:

[WayStar]

Recently, I've heard Eric Raymond on "the Linux show" speak forcefully about the need to clean up linux interfaces

I'm so glad to hear it coming from ESR, too. He's "old school" and therefore not likely to be brushed off as a whining newbie.

I love that I can dig into the CLI and tweak things under the hood. In fact, I count on that capability in making my system be exactly what I want it to be. But for day-to-day work flow, having things work well from a GUI makes a big difference.

-Waylena, who loves her simple fluxbox+gkrellm+idesk desktop.

[eriksays]

Originally posted by blackbelt_jones
... the real problem for the general user is probably installing apps and resolving dependencies.

this has been my biggest headache in moving over to linux and the main reason i stick with packages whenever i can

oh, and i use yum to manage the packages

[hlrguy]

Originally posted by Icarus
I can, use Harris Bank, works great in Linux (except the 'export to quicken' option, but I don't use it)


Compass bank works great, and I use their Quicken option because KmyMoney2 reads QIF files fine.

hlrguy

[duncanbojangles]

Wait, its not ready for the desktop!? Then what the hell did you think Windows 3.11 and 95 were ready for?
</sarcasm>

I find Linux perfectly suited for my desktop. It all depends on your definition, I guess. I wish the big shells (Gnome's and KDE's) weren't so obtrusive, maybe more integrated into the desktop.

[hard candy]

Linux will be "ready for the desktop" when it can be operated by "wimps"-- that is, ordinary people who don't want to read a computer manual. You don't have to read a manual to run Windows!
Au contrare, mon ami! I remember looking through white papers trying to find out why Win98 would not install with 768 MB RAM. I called Microsoft several times trying to get Win XP installed only to find out it neede to be "reregistered" (it had been on another machine.
I contend a Mandrake/Suse/Redhat install is easier than a WinXP install (faster, too!). And the desktop is easier to use, no dang Messenger popping up or pop-up telling you that such and such is connected.

If a person can't handle Mandrake or Suse, then they are beyond a wimp.

[eriksays]

1. fedora core 1 install was a LOT faster than the hour and a half windows xp wants

2. i've reinstalled windows on this particular machine at least five times in the 3 years i've had it

3. i've still got a ways to go on my LLC (linux learning curve); however, I am attempting to do a lot more on my linux box than i've ever done on my windows box (web server, ftp server, vnc, mythtv, webcam repository)

[Dark Ninja]

Originally posted by hard candy
If a person can't handle Mandrake or Suse, then they are beyond a wimp.
Stupid then, huh? ;)

And, yes, Linux is/was ready for the desktop. Maybe not everybody's desktop -- but, for the people who want to use it, it's ready and it has been ready.

Although, honestly, I hope it never gets *too* crowded in the Linux world. The one thing I like about having Linux is NOBODY ASKS ME TO FIX THEIR COMPUTER ANYMORE! They used to. But, after I had Linux for awhile, I started telling them, "Oh, I don't remember anymore. It's been so long since I used Windows." ;) They leave me alone.

Thank you, Linux!

[thread_killer]

Well from a business perspective......

Linux won't be ready for the desktop until Suzy Secretary can do everything on her *nix box that she can do now with XP.

I, for one, will be damned if I'm going to give my 6000+ clueless users a root password on their machine. Nor do I want to have to try to support/ find alternatives for all the different software packages that we use. There are seven engineers here supporting 30 sites and the already mentioned 6000+ machines. It's just not happening until such time as there are:
a) more software packages available
b) more ways to do things without having to be root or run as root
c) all 200 something printer models we have around here are fully supported out of the box
d) There is a real-for-real NetWare and Groupwise client. (I know! It's coming)

The list goes on. Basicially for my network-- and many, many more-- things are too entrenched to drop *nix on the desktop all at once. Yes, we're looking at doing a very slow migration, yes, we'll probably have a few users (besides myself) on it soon, but to completely switch? No time soon.

You know who has done a good job of making *nix user friendly? Apple. OS X is a desktop/clueless user ready OS. Not even SuSE 9.1 is that.

[StarTiger]

Originally posted by hard candy
6. When DX9 runs in Linux?

Why whould I want that on my Linux hardrive???

It gives me enough problems on the Win XPPro /98se haddrive just above it.

[Icarus]

thread_killer, you just listed every good reason to run Linux in a corporate infrastructure!

a) more software packages available
Less crap to be installed by the user, leaving only business apps available

b) more ways to do things without having to be root or run as root
No root, no install, no modifications. It keeps the end user from screwing something up that us support people need to learn to fix for them

c) all 200 something printer models we have around here are fully supported out of the box
If they are HP printers, they are supported. Otherwise, who the hell did the purchasing there!?

d) There is a real-for-real NetWare and Groupwise client. (I know! It's coming)
Heh, didn't netware die off with Token-Ring networks? :p
j/k I know this is important for many people and with Novell's recent plung into Linux I'm sure it will be available soon.

From a support view, I can see Linux in the office a huge benefit. If the users screw something up so bad they can't work...delete /home/user (or move it) and they are back working.
Not having the root password there is almost no way for the user to mess up the system and need to send it in to get 'reinstalled'. If they need something installed, that is what software requests are for and the support group can ssh to the machine and install it for them.

I can picture a world without Windows, its not as dark as you would think

[hlrguy]

Originally posted by thread_killer
d) There is a real-for-real NetWare and Groupwise client. (I know! It's coming)

Interesting. My company, in the last 6 months disabled IM, Netmeeting using internal servers (1 outside the firewall in a DMZ), MeetingMaker all due to innate insecurity of all of them. We now have a javasript web server that reserves conference rooms and can email attendees. Not being a primarily windows shop, what are other examples of Netware and Groupwise clients that are must have. For the people at my work, Windows is pretty much Office/Email, and not much else.

As for root, I have installed Linux 32+ times for home users, and I didn't give them root access. I will ssh in if they want changes, simply because I was so very sick of maintaining 32 windows machines. That was virtually a second job. I need root to install software, and change hardware configs. Update on their machines is set for auto-update, so what else do you have to have root for?

Network printing with Windows is a pain too. Last time I was at another corporate office, a coworker tried for about an hour to convince Windows to search for printers on the network. Knoppix, and about 8 minutes later, all 14 printers in that location found and 12 presentation packages printed out. I love thumbdrives...:)

I wonder how much time each of those 30 people spends fixing what user's break by playing, and how much time spent fixing things when Windows just stops performing what used to work, time spent updating security on machines and fixing the things that the updates break, and upgrading virus checkers, and removing virus' from the network...well you get the idea. Here is what happened at our company last week...

http://www.justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131116

hlrguy

[infiniphunk]

I think linux is totally ready for the desktop. My girlfriend and I are both college students, and we both started using linux less than a year ago. I recently put debian on her laptop for her and she's so amazed by it she's already asking me to delete windows off it. Basically, people using a "desktop" computer are browsing the web, sending and reading e-mails, chatting through some chat client, and listening to music or watching a movie. Quite frankly, I've gotten to the point now where I can do anything I ever did in windows, minus the constant hassle of reboots, viruses and defrags. As for people complaining about office-suite compatiblity, I have had no problems tranfering a document I made in openoffice to Word. I even read an article somewhere where a guy said linux will be ready for the desktop when there is an obvious "My Documents" icon on the desktop. Wow, its sad how dumb some folks are.

[timothykaine]

1. When there is a Linux version of Half Life 2?

Dont really care... They hyped that game to hell, and I havent heard a SINGLE thing about it for a long time. Did it even release? I dont even know, actually. I couldnt care less. Usually the more something is hyped, the more it just proves upon its release that it depended entirely upon the hype. *cough* Windows XP, The Matrix, Blair Witch Project *cough*


2. When you can bank online ?

Any damn time I want. Works fine for me.


3. When Shockwave has a Linux version?

All the games and movies play fine for me, so you mean creation. Once again... dont care.


4. When ATI has a click-to-install version of their drivers?

ATI doesnt even have a semi-stable WINDOWS driver, fat chance theyll ever have one for Linux. I dont buy their products anymore.


5. When anything Office2004 puts out, Linux can open in a proper format?

Kontact, Evolution, OpenOffice, Koffice... who the hell would buy MS office if they already knew better? Everything opens fine for me...


6. When DX9 runs in Linux?

MS product, fat chance, and Id rather have a game not crash my system than have lil reflections in the water Id have to stop and get fragged to see anyways...


7. When PocketPC's will synch with Linux without compiling anything?

Well, if youre gonna use Linux, youre gonna compile SOMETHING.. but besides: Linux can go on a pocket PC, problem solved. You can buy a Palm that doesnt have a crashing OS, problem solved. You can get a Zaurus, problem solved. You can get a symbian OS PDA-phone, problem solved... Get rid of an MS OS one place, why keep it somewhere else?

Seems like my desktop is ready for Linux. Yet Ive never had a desktop that was ready for Windows.... hmmm. :D

[hard candy]

there is an obvious "My Documents" icon on the desktop.
Suse 9.1 has a My Computer icon on the desktop.
Do you think it will ever be ready in everyone's opinion? Nope, what else would the columnists write about?
And I apologize for the title of the thread- it was too trollbaitish. I'm going to change it.

[thread_killer]

Originally posted by Icarus
thread_killer, you just listed every good reason to run Linux in a corporate infrastructure!

a) more software packages available
Less crap to be installed by the user, leaving only business apps available

b) more ways to do things without having to be root or run as root
No root, no install, no modifications. It keeps the end user from screwing something up that us support people need to learn to fix for them

c) all 200 something printer models we have around here are fully supported out of the box
If they are HP printers, they are supported. Otherwise, who the hell did the purchasing there!?

d) There is a real-for-real NetWare and Groupwise client. (I know! It's coming)
Heh, didn't netware die off with Token-Ring networks? :p
j/k I know this is important for many people and with Novell's recent plung into Linux I'm sure it will be available soon.



Oh...I don't diagaree with you on points a and b. I guess the point I am trying to make is that there are 'cultural' ramifications of changing that go beyond the 'bottom line'. For one, we have 1800 lisenced apps in our organization. Eighteen hundred. There are not replacements for every one of those. Now....could some of those be consolodated and/or done away with completely? Hell yes. I'll give you a prime example. We have one woman in our HR department (ONE) who still uses Word Perfect. We have upgraded her machine twice since I started working there and she insists that all her word perfect documnets move unaffected.

Is that ridiculous? In my opinion, yep. I have had shouting matches with people that make much more money than I do about our inability to support 10 year old software for one user. Fact is...I get over ridden. Here is another. Visio. If there is a *good* Visio replacement out there, please let me know. We have a whole department that uses Visio all day long. There are also dozens of GIS programs that we run that are only Windows apps. Are there *nix versions available? There is probably something similar, but then we're buying that too. It's not going to be something we download off of the web, that's for sure. Then we're talking about re-training and downtime.

As for the printers, I'm not talking about network printers, those are a breeze. I'm talking about the dozens of local printers at each site. Yeah, some are HP but we have lots of other stuff out there too. One of the problems of being in a large and distributed organization that is woefully understaffed is that departments just buy what they want, slap it together, then demand we support it. I once found a P2P network of 20 Win2k machines that had been set up for desktop publishing completely unbeknownst to our technology department by some ladies boyfriend. We didn't even know it was there until she called me *demanding* internet access for her 20 unpatched virus vectors.

I've been there for three years (thankfully this Friday is my last day) and I have spent the entire time railing against the cultural stupidity that was built into that network. It's a loooooong process. When users can do something for years, it's hard to take it away. I had a woman red in the face screaming at me --spit flying out of her mouth and everything-- because I turned off the ability to use AIM.

As for the NetWare stuff......we have over a dozen years of historical information archived on some of those servers. Say what you want about Novell, but as a print and file share server, NetWare is tough to beat. So why would we move to something else? Especially since the other six engineers there (besides myself) are all Novell Engineers? My boss certainly isn't going to recommend that we change that....he'd be putting himself out of a job. I don't see us being anything other than a NetWare shop anytime in the near future. NetWare is designed to be accessed by windows. Yeah, you can do it with *nix, and you can do it with mac, but you don't get the full feature set.

With Novell's buy out of SuSE there is some hope. I've set up a test tree running UL with Nterprise services on it both at home and at work. It's working great. I'm starting to get a couple of the other engineers excited about it when I show them that the management tools are the same as they learned when we upgraded to NW6. "Hey that's really cool man. You know what though? I don't know what to do at the console". <---That's the resistence I'm getting there. It's hard to talk someone out of their comfort zone if they don't want to be there. Hell....it was like pulling teeth to get those guys to learn how to use RAID. It was simply something they had never done before. I probably spent a year troubleshooting RAID (or percieved RAID) issues before they became comfortable enough with the hardware to try it on their own.

By the way....Token RIng networks ROCKED! :D There were two things that killed token ring.
One...it was a pain in the *** to install. I got my start in this industry as a cable installer and for sheer ease of work on myself I would recommend Ethernet over TR to customers. Just like every other installer did.
Two...Switches finally became resonably priced and you didn't have to worry about your network grinding to a halt as soon 25 users were all using the hub at the same time.
Man...I'd take a four mb token ring network with 80 or 90 users on it over a 10mb ethernet hub network with the same number of users on it any day.
Now that we're going gig to the desktop with 10 gig trunks switched though, it's kind of a moot point.

[hlrguy]

Originally posted by hard candy
5. When anything Office2004 puts out, Linux can open in a

So we have to hold Linux word interpreters to a higher standard than Microsoft itself? :D

http://www.cde.state.co.us/utility/msodocs.htm
With the help of converters and viewers from Microsoft® Office Update, CDE can share its Microsoft Office files with people who have different versions of Office applications

How many people have installed the converter engine, and how many just reformat the glitches that happen between different version of Office (and between the same versions of office because person a has their options set this way, and they aren't replicated on the host machine).

Not a slam, but another general myth. If MS can't make their documents look the same, version to version, computer to computer, why is Linux held to a higher standard?

hlrguy

[hlrguy]

Originally posted by thread_killer
Here is another. Visio. If there is a *good* Visio replacement out there, please let me know.

I get the biggest kick out of this. Management uses Visio (how is this better than Mr Project (http://mrproject.codefactory.se/) ), they are all so pleased with it, then end up invariably sending out as email, or xls, since none of us grunts use visio or have access to it. I personally think it is not used as a real tool, to really track anything, it is for making a pretty picture to put into a powerpoint slide before a project is started to show just how offical and wonderful it will be, see, we mapped all the timelines.

hlrguy

[thread_killer]

Visio is far more than gantt charts. I wish it were such an easy thing to fix. We actually use project for gantt charts.

Visio (http://office.microsoft.com/home/office.aspx?assetid=FX01085798)

[bwkaz]

Maybe use Dia instead of Visio?

I don't know if the Visio file format is readable (likely not), but I believe the program does mostly the same thing.

[hard candy]

Two different desktops- organizational and private. Linux is ready for the private desktops. Two things not available with the Linux desktop without some work- DirectX games and encrypted dvd playing.
But for my desktop it is ready.
And thread_killer, at our hospital we have ethernet, wireless, remote, Win95, Win98, Win2000, WinXP, Macintosh, and some really proprietary medical information programs. Plus the egos of medical personnel, administrators, professors, researchers from all over the world. No linux though, "it leaves ports open to attack" according to the IT admin.

[bwkaz]

Originally posted by hard candy
No linux though, "it leaves ports open to attack" according to the IT admin. Fewer ports than Windows... :rolleyes:

That vaunted RPC service on Windows? You know, the one you can't disable if you want the machine to boot? Yeah, it opens at least one port. NMB/SMB is almost always open also. A completely "clean" Linux (as in, one that's just been installed via something like LFS, so no daemons have started up yet) opens nothing.

Of course, I don't expect every network admin to understand, but jeez guys... ;)

[bsm2001]

I think that the title of your post says it all. Linux will be "ready for the desktop" when it can be operated by "wimps"-- that is, ordinary people who don't want to read a computer manual.

Iresent that statement. I have No training in computers and I have even gotten my Wife to ditch Windows. IT IS READY FOR THE DESKTOP NOW!

[blackbelt_jones]

Originally posted by hard candy
Au contrare, mon ami! I remember looking through white papers trying to find out why Win98 would not install with 768 MB RAM. I called Microsoft several times trying to get Win XP installed only to find out it neede to be "reregistered" (it had been on another machine.
I contend a Mandrake/Suse/Redhat install is easier than a WinXP install (faster, too!). And the desktop is easier to use, no dang Messenger popping up or pop-up telling you that such and such is connected.

If a person can't handle Mandrake or Suse, then they are beyond a wimp.

Well, that's the paradox. Linux is much easier to install than Windows: for one thing there are no propretary hoops to jump through, no 47 digit registration number or documentation. Also, Linux is easier to intall because that's necessary. Unlike Windows, nearly every Linux system is self-intalled. But installing is not running. You could train a chimp to intall SuSE 9.0, but once I had it inswtalled, the way the permissions were set up absolutely eluded me. (I am not a SuSE fan.):confused: