Linux for Religious Groups

[evangelinux]

IT media need to pay more attention to religious organizations, which actually play a fairly important role in the IT market place. Religious organizations have the same security and stability needs as any commercial business. For instance, the ability to (re)produce certain documents, based on information from a church's database, could allow someone to engage in identity theft. Furthermore, churches need to understand that they have choices when it comes to computer software.

This bi-vocational pastor wrote a booklet called "Penguin in the Pew", which is geared toward helping religious and non-profit orgs understand the choices they face in the way of computer software. The book's impact on the religious community is already significant. It has been downloaded hundreds of time in the past few weeks since its release in mid-May. It has led to the IT media beginnning to show some interest in the subject.

Whoever might read this can check out the book easily enough from the Downloads sidebar at:

http://matheteuo.org/

Regards,
DC Parris

[maccorin]

please do not make this site religious, not all of us care

[sharth]

I don't see how this makes the site any more religious than it is already, but I really don't think this belongs in Ideas, probably more so in /dev/random or something...

and if you would like a better link...

http://matheteuo.org/downloads/Penguin-in-the-Pew.pdf

[maccorin]

i thought he was implying we should focus on bringing linux to religious groups... different interpretation of the post, my bad i guess...

[evangelinux]

My goal is certainly not to turn this into a religious forum. I'm seeking to help introduce Linux folks and religious (as well as non-profit groups in general) to each other. I think you'll find I tend to play nice. I don't have time for flame wars. :)

Most religious (and NPOs) don't even know what Linux is - much less that it might be a viable solution for them. Many Linux developers don't care one way or the other about religious groups, although they do play a role in the IT market place.

What typically happens in many churches is that someone knows an IT (a.k.a. Windows) guru at work, who knows little or nothing about Linux beyond reading about it. The guru dismisses Linux, telling the church to stick with what they have (Windows). This could be a bad thing for the church, which might otherwise have discovered that Linux is the ideal OS for it.

There is a need for religious groups to understand how Linux can benefit them. There is also a need for the Linux developer community to consider helping out with software for religious use. (Bible study, church management, etc.) There is zilch in terms of viable admin software for religious and non-profit orgs. MyBooks can help with the bookkeeping, but beyond that, it's a grow-your-own world.

Our church uses Linux for admin purposes (using OpenOffice.org) and computer training classes. I've already been interviewed by one web site, and have an article for another awaiting publication. Frankly, I was hoping someone from Linux Planet (which is how I got here) would pick up on the idea as a story to run. This seemed the most likely forum.

If need be, I'll move. Just point me in the right direction.

Cheers,
Don

[maccorin]

did you know RMS is aetheist?

[je_fro]

I like it.
I've donated hundreds of hours installing GNU/Linux on older, donated hardware for retirees and senior citizens to use in their homes. They cant tell a difference, except it doesn't bsod anymore.

[hammer123]

heh, i got into linux because my pastor introduced me. Our church only uses it for servers though soon it will be for recording sermons too. frankly other than to link me to a book that may be good i don't see the point of the post and good friends of mine like maccorin get threatened. Maccorin RMS still lets us use GNU. More and more stuff is getting useable for churches but I don't know how a nonprofit has different needs from a desktop user or a business

[maccorin]

Originally posted by hammer123
heh, i got into linux because my pastor introduced me. Our church only uses it for servers though soon it will be for recording sermons too. frankly other than to link me to a book that may be good i don't see the point of the post and good friends of mine like maccorin get threatened. Maccorin RMS still lets us use GNU. More and more stuff is getting useable for churches but I don't know how a nonprofit has different needs from a desktop user or a business

of course RMS lets "you" use it, whoever "you" is.... that was my point, i don't see how religion plays into linux at all.

[mrBen]

I've written a couple of blog entries about this topic. Additionally, I am working on a Project (http://freely.jedimoose.org) specifically aimed at advocating and supporting Linux/OSS in churches/Christian organisations.

[rocketpcguy]

yes, never trust anything to windows:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/05/19/uk.online.church/

[hard candy]

This seems more an idea about linux in general than about Justlinux- seems to belong in /dev/random.

[Icarus]

Originally posted by maccorin
of course RMS lets "you" use it, whoever "you" is.... that was my point, i don't see how religion plays into linux at all. heh, he let's 'you' use Linux...so we know he's not biased about who uses it at all :grin:

Religion doesn't really have much to do with this thread besides that's what 'he' is using it for. If anyone is going to get their panties in a bunch over who's using Linux...we should storm Redmond headquarters since they use it also!

Lynch mob, meeting at 2:00PM PST at One Microsoft Lane in Redmond Washington!

But on topic, most non-profit orginizations recieve their computers from Microsoft with Windows pre-loaded. What really needs to be done is have people donate computes with Linux pre-loaded ;)

[Dark Ninja]

i don't see how religion plays into linux at all.


Heh...apparently you've never visited Slashdot. :p

[rbrimhall]

Originally posted by Icarus
heh, he let's 'you' use Linux...so we know he's not biased about who uses it at all :grin:

Religion doesn't really have much to do with this thread besides that's what 'he' is using it for. If anyone is going to get their panties in a bunch over who's using Linux...we should storm Redmond headquarters since they use it also!

Lynch mob, meeting at 2:00PM PST at One Microsoft Lane in Redmond Washington!

But on topic, most non-profit orginizations recieve their computers from Microsoft with Windows pre-loaded. What really needs to be done is have people donate computes with Linux pre-loaded ;)

I think this is a good idea... most local based non-profits are really broke (living off of grants can be extremely difficult)... Linux could potentially save them a lot of money... Case in point, There was a group of kids in Philly that I met at a conference that refurbished pc's and slapped linux on them to give out to economically disadvantaged people that partcipated in and completed computer training courses ("bridging the digital divide project").... they never would have been able to afford doing this with MS... with the money they saved they hooked up those that recieved pcs with internet service for a year.

[mrBen]

Originally posted by Icarus

But on topic, most non-profit orginizations recieve their computers from Microsoft with Windows pre-loaded. What really needs to be done is have people donate computes with Linux pre-loaded ;)

I think that churches / charities / NPO are often ripe for migrating to linux. They tend to be a little bit behind technologically, have very modest usage requirements (little specialist software), and in many cases are not particularly tied to one system or other.

[bproffitt]

I strongly agree that Linux has a place in all non-profit organizations, especially churches/mosques/synagogues. I have been advocating a Linux-based system in my own church, as well as a secular non-profit group I help out from time to time.

The real key here is to demonstrate the savings in license fees *and* that the users will have the same functionality in Linux that they will under Windows. You cannot ignore this last part, because the more non-tech someone is, the less willing they are to depart from their "OS confort zone." I can cite dozens of technical reasons why OpenOffice is a better system than Office, but they don't matter two hoots if OpenOffice doesn't have the "same buttons to make our newsletter."

The point is, OO has the same tools, but not in the same place or with the same name. Techies know to go look for the equivalent tools. Non-techs are extremely uncomfortable with this.

Thus, the real issue with getting Linux in a non-profit is not the machines or the software, its the training. And I mean, potentially, real simple training, like how to double-click the mouse to open a file.

My $.02.

Peace,
BKP

[hard candy]

Before we jump on Microsoft/Bill Gate's back:

Gates Foundation Grants (http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Grants/default.htm?showYear=2004)
One example:
12.17.2003 Boys & Girls Clubs of America
$1,213,829 over 3 years to support technology centers for underserved youth throughout Washington .

But really, the main thing is getting together to help folks. Your local LUG is one avenue. There is strength in numbers. A local college computer class is another- especially if they give extra credit for the deed. :) And, big institutions like corporations, hospitals, etc are a source of older hardware, especially if you point out the PR and tax writeoffs may be worth more than what they'll get paid for surplus equipment. Quite a few of them warehouse older equipment until they get a big enough pile to call in the surplus people, sometimes you can approach them and help eliminate/reduce the pile ahead of time.

[sharth]

One of the nice things about free software is that it doesn't restrict you from using it for purpose xyz. (in this case religious / npo). Personally, I don't think that on the developers side that this needs to be any more looked into than a normal user's needs. Simply put, the needs should be the same. The church wants an easy to use desktop, so do alot of users... churches and users want an easy to use, fairly compatible web-browser.

The point that the thread starter (evangelinux) is trying to make however, seems to be more along the lines of that he believes that these people are being skipped over on the ways of getting the linux word out. Personally, I think that its not that bad of a thing, since I don't believe that the linux word has gotten that far out (although I am amazed at school by the number of people who know about it, high school mind you).

Personally, I'm all for churches and npo's getting into linux/foss/bsd/whatever. Simply put, these groups aren't in the buissinesses that they are in for a profit, they are in it for the service that they provide. The less cost overhead of liscenses and the like, the better in my opinion.

But the only problem with going foss/linux/bsd/whatever is that your normal techies who had been keeping everything running would need to know a completly new way of doing things.

If they can pull it off, and its cost efficient, than more power to them. At the very least, they might as well use oo.o instead of ms word and save a pile of money on that.

[evangelinux]

Try to remember, this has nothing to do with propagating religion, and everything to do with propagting Linux among those who are members of religious and non-profit orgs. I saw a post somewhere where someone does not support Linux missionaries because they think people should be allowed to choose for themselves. That's great. But many in the religious and non-profit community don't even know what Linux is - much less that they have a choice to make.

In the Windows world, there is a fully developed selection of software for church (religious) & non-profit orgs. R/NPOs have no such choice in the Linux world. Many such groups won't likely be attracted to Linux without having a canned administrative application. What is available is woefully under-developed.

On the other hand Linux is a great choice for such groups precisely because it offers superior stability and security for any organization - regardless of it's commercial or non-commercial status. Such groups need a high level of security due to the very sensitive nature of the data they store.

Open source software in general is a great choice precisely because of the case of the inner-city youth cited above! It helps people get into computing who would otherwise never have a chance.

RMS is definitely an atheist. I documented that (I think) in my book. Yet, he unwittingly advocates values that resonate strongly with Christians (and other faith groups). Any moderator should feel free to ask me to take the discussion elsewhere if it's inappropriate. Based on the responses here, that's a matter of opinion. So I'll leave it to the moderators.

Frankly, I'm just glad we're having the dialogue.

DCP

[evangelinux]

I just saw the other posts. Penguin in the Pew addresses many of these concerns, and has become quite popular. You can download it from the link in the original post. :)

It got a great review from another Linux forum, so I think it's an important issue. More later.

DCP

[maccorin]

to Evangelinux:

I would love to be more involved in this dialog, but i don't think there is anywhere on the forums where what i have to say (beyond what i already have) is appropriate. It's easy to piss a lot of people off when your taking a stance against a pastor, that's one of the reasons i dislike threads like this. You cannot effectivly take a different side w/o the risk of being violating the user-agreement and being banned.

In other words, if you _really_ would like to hear opinions from people of walks of life that are different then yours as well as inline w/ yours, then you picked the wrong forum.

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by maccorin
to Evangelinux:

I would love to be more involved in this dialog, but i don't think there is anywhere on the forums where what i have to say (beyond what i already have) is appropriate. It's easy to piss a lot of people off when your taking a stance against a pastor, that's one of the reasons i dislike threads like this. You cannot effectivly take a different side w/o the risk of being violating the user-agreement and being banned.

In other words, if you _really_ would like to hear opinions from people of walks of life that are different then yours as well as inline w/ yours, then you picked the wrong forum.

Um... I think the idea of getting *any organization* to adopt Linux is a great idea. I especially like the fact that, in this case, the paper is specifically targeted towards those who would make decisions in a church setting. By alluding to Biblical premises that should strike home with any Christian, I feel that the author makes a very compelling argument even more compelling by basically providing not only technical information about Linux, but also citing Biblical passages concerning being open to new ideas.

Personally, I lean heavily on an angle of stewardship. With the ministry I'm a part of, I'm taught part of following God is doing well with what you've got-- not wasting what He's given to you. If you can save a load of money and find new uses for currently existing hardware. That, by my faith, would show God that you are effectively and intelligently using what you've been given, which would open up the door to more abundance.

...But, I don't want to delve too much into religious discussions on the board. After all, it is a Linux board-- I was just mentioning one concept I felt was of note to the argument. I completely agree with evangelinux about a church's need to have stable and secure systems that they can use to further their endeavours. Also, I feel that this particular discourse is one that can be participated in regardless of how one feels about religion...

(oh, and bc is not the text-based spreadsheet, it's sc)
...And to maccorin: you can feel more than free to participate in the discussion in whatever regard you feel is appropriate. While the topic of religion can spark and turn into a flame war, this particular topic, IMHO, is relatively safe, as it really isn't advocating Linux users to become religious people, it's more advocating religious people become Linux users. I don't think a soul here could argue against that...:)

But, if you have an opinion as to why Linux should not be used in churches, DEFINITELY pipe up-- We do need discourse from both sides of the fence if you had a reason it should not be deployed.

[Icarus]

Originally posted by Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379
But, if you have an opinion as to why Linux should not be used in churches, DEFINITELY pipe up-- We do need discourse from both sides of the fence if you had a reason it should not be deployed. Now you're leaving out the pegans by saying this is a two sided issue :p

I would like to hear of why any church should not adopt Linux, I think even the Amish can benifit from using Linux! :D

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by Icarus
Now you're leaving out the pegans by saying this is a two sided issue :p

I would like to hear of why any church should not adopt Linux, I think even the Amish can benifit from using Linux! :D

LOL.

But with the Amish, how useful could Linux really be to them?

A burned CD-R of Linux makes only a marginal quality mirror. A pressed Windows XP disc, OTOH, is more reflective, and thus make a better mirror or reflective surface. Really, I'd probably end up recommending XP for the Amish, based on that premise...

But heck yeah, any chuch, regardless of faith, could probably fit Linux in their plan somewhere, assuming their plan required computers, or in the case of the Amish, something they could use for a good mirror...

[maccorin]

it's not that i am against a church using linux, at all, i'm not against _anyone_ using linux, i've just noticed that churches want "special" attention in a _lot_ of areas, and I do not think that any group deserves or could even possibly get special attention on linux. If you want special religious software, do it yourself. Same for the people that want better video apps, or a different WM, or a better office suite... ANYTHING.

I'm getting sick of the word "we" flying around in this forum and others, it is always said by someone that either can't or won't do the work for themselves and expect the community to do it for them. We all have different needs, what makes a churches particularly different so much that they can't either 1) hire someone to do it for them, or 2) do it theirselves.

And yes, I generally get defensive when threads that so much as touch religion come up in a forum that has a user agreement, because i find it offensive, but it's allowed, yet if I were to say the things I think of it I would be immediatly banned.

[evangelinux]

You guys are really starting to catch on now! :)

Regardless of the religion or denomination or sect, many organizations can use open source software. It's helpful to have specialty applications designed to meet their needs. Most members of such orgs don't know how to design databases in MYSQL, etc.

Heck, many of these folks wouldn't understand that Windows is an OS (although many do) that runs applications. I deal routinely with people who are illiterate where computers are concerned, even those who use them everyday. If canned apps exist, these people will be more interested in moving ot Linux and open source software.

The Gnu/Linux/open source community simply need to realize that there is a specialized "market" out there for them to work with. Whether developers are religious or not, is of no consequence. Many non-religious people are willing to help or work with those who are - even if only because it's "for a good cause".

If anyone wants to debate the merits of religion, I would recommend usenet. They do that kind of thing there all the time. And I don't participate in that, either. It's a waste of time. If we want to talk about giving people options where software is concerned, then let's keep at it. If we want to discuss how best to help religious groups understand how they can benefit from Linux, we can work that angle as well. Hopefully, the threat of religious crusades is now laid to rest.

There are a few open source apps for religious and church management purposes. Most seem to focus on smaller groups. While many groups would do well with OpenOffice.org & MySQL, others may well want a nice, application that integrates the financial data with the membership data. Larger orgs need to provide information compatible with QuickBooks.

Worship planning and Sermon preparation type stuff would be good as well.

As far as helping churches to understand the beneifts of Linux, I find that some leaders will want to know what Linux does that Windows cannot/does not do. Hmmm. What do y'all think about that?

[maccorin]

Originally posted by evangelinux
[The Gnu/Linux/open source community simply need to realize that there is a specialized "market" out there for them to work with. Who can say that? There are many "specialized markets" if they want linux it's up to them to create the apps they need. Most people that develop on linux do it out of their personal time, and not for profit. They don't take requests that well either. It's a diyods (do it your own damn self) world. Whether developers are religious or not, is of no consequence. Many non-religious people are willing to help or work with those who are - even if only because it's "for a good cause".

Whether the developer has a use for the software is of huge consequence, and if a dev isn't religious... I doubt he has a use for the software. Do you _really_ want an aetheist that knows nothing about how a church is run designing the software that you use? Thats like asking microsoft to build a linux app.

If anyone wants to debate the merits of religion, I would recommend usenet. They do that kind of thing there all the time. And I don't participate in that, either. I don't see a single person on here debating the merits of religion, in fact I have specifically avoided it because of previously stated reasons.

If we want to talk about giving people options where software is concerned, then let's keep at it. If we want to discuss how best to help religious groups understand how they can benefit from Linux, we can work that angle as well. Hopefully, the threat of religious crusades is now laid to rest. I'm sure you aren't trying to convert people or whatever, but you _are_ asking for special attention. What makes you more worthy of that then any other group that needs specialized software? What about people that want a Digidesign like suite for their audio-recording, or the people that want high-end graphics support, or the people that want to run M$ office on their box _stabely_, none of those "specialized" groups of people's needs are being met by anyone but themselves. And they are a lot bigger then some church full of what i get the idea are technologically illeterate people. What makes your group so special as to deserve special attention?


There are a few open source apps for religious and church management purposes. Most seem to focus on smaller groups. While many groups would do well with OpenOffice.org & MySQL, others may well want a nice, application that integrates the financial data with the membership data. Larger orgs need to provide information compatible with QuickBooks.

Worship planning and Sermon preparation type stuff would be good as well.

As far as helping churches to understand the beneifts of Linux, I find that some leaders will want to know what Linux does that Windows cannot/does not do. Hmmm. What do y'all think about that?

i think that's fine and dandy, so implement it.

[gehidore]

I and other's here on the forum have tried to get our local church to switch to linux, as the computers they have are windows xp home and pro, they are very prone to viruses. its not the best thing to have a browser poping up porn sites when your showing a class of teens and preteens something. although that has not happened yet im almost positive it will soon, it happened to me when i was presenting a ppt in a hs class. egay is an unfortunet pop up in your 70%male class.

[evangelinux]

maccorin,

I welcome your thoughts. As for offending you, just try not to hold it against me. I don't get offended when a Buddhist shares his views with me - that's part of life. I simply learn what I can from him. I'll benefit from understanding him, even if I don't agree. But I will not be offended by his views. That's just me.

Gnu/Linux is definitely a grow-your-own world. I have done a great many things on my own that I would not likely have done in Windows. Yet, not everyone can play goalie in soccer or hockey. And not everyone can be a programmer. I feel like creating the PHP functions that drive much of our web site's content was a major accomplishment for me. But object-oriented scripting and coding? It just seems over my head. I have great difficulty with it.

By posting this thread, I have the opportunity to get the religious among us to thinking, and to begin a dialogue. I also have the opportunity to meet real developers who might - regardless of their religious persuasions - take an interest in the computing issues that religious groups face.

Because Linux has played such a phenomenal role in my understanding of copmuters, I imagine that others who start down the Linux road will have similar experiences. Not all, mind you, but many. I suspect that Linux will open doors for folks that they themselves would never think to open on their own.

Whoda thunk I would be building PHP-driven web pages? Come to think of it, Whoda thunk I would be running Linux? After all, it was only 9 years ago, I didn't know how to turn on a computer! I recently completed a migration from MySQL 3.23 to MySQL 4.0.18.

So who knows? Simply by some dumb preacher sharing his Linux experience with others, the religious folks might turn out a great programmer or two.

Kind regards,
DCP

[WayStar]

I'm not a very religious person, but I have worked for a number of small and medium sized non-profit organizations. I think it is more appropriate to target all NPOs en masse, and then let individuals within religion-specific organizations use that information to do the lin-evangelizing internally.

In other words, find adaptations of open source apps that could specifically help NPOs. Most have some sort of membership with data to be managed, there are accounting needs which specifically take into account the tax advantages of being NPO, donations and grants must be managed, volunteer programs, etc.)

Word processing, databases, spreadsheets, vector-drawing/layout programs... all have to be set up to work in the way most familiar to people in homes and other jobs. (This point was brought up in earlier posts, I want to acknowledge that.)

People working in smaller NPOs are often incredibly dedicated to the organization, its mission, and the roles they have in helping the organization succeed. That's how I feel now as a part of the Linux community. (Okay, so I'm not a programmer. But I'm an outspoken enthusiast, I'm helpful to newbies, and I contribute financially to a few of my favorite projects. I try to be a good person, honest... :) ) If we could "win over" a few more NPOs, we'd stand to gain some serious allies.

It's been five years since I last worked for an NPO. I really hope that someone in those places is now trying to introduce Linux.

-my 2 cents,
Waylena

[twilli227]

maccorin, your kidding right? Tell me you are kidding and forgot to put in the smiley face:D
evangelinux is not here preaching to you or anybody else. If you think he is preaching to you then you haven't been to church in awhile.
I do agree with you that to come up with an apropriate app. for church groups/non profits, that someone from that group will probably have to do it themselves.
maccorin, one last question, are you this adamant about other poster that are looking for a specific app.(video editing, different WM, better office suite). Do you go off on them in the same manner? Man, you really need some vacation time and relax.

[bproffitt]

Originally posted by maccorin
[B this is the _only_ thread that evangelinux has spoken in, and I find it extremely against my beliefs and views, I also find it bad for linux in general, but that is just my 2 cents. [/B]


Then don't participate. This thread is not advocating religion, but even if you think it is, you're welcome to go read something else.

BKP

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

(Thread reopened-- let's all try to keep things happy, okay?

[XiaoKJ]

I'm totally for any movement to widen the use of linux.

But I'm not going to be happy if it promotes any religion -- I am strongly on Taoism and spreading Christianity right before my eyes is unethical...

And JL.com users are sensible enough to remain clear-minded and keep peace here, I hope...

[evangelinux]

Thanks for reopening the thread. Let's continue our focus on the Linux nature of this issue, otherwise, we'll get shut down again. For those who want to "mix" Linux and religion, head over to

http://freely.jedimoose.org/

This site deals with using Linux in churches, and the focus is on both, Linux and Faith. I will be posting a second pamphlet(?) called Information Technology as Ministry on the same web site as Penguin in the Pew within the next two days - if not today.

My original goal was to help religious AND non-profit organizations in general learn about Linux. I'm happy to help anyone of any religion, but I am a Christian minister, hence that is my area of expertise. I don't know how muslims adminster their mosques, but I do know how Christians administer their churches.

I also know that non-profit groups use computers extensively. The original goal was to point out how these groups would benefit by using Linux. For example, our small church happens to use a single Linux workstation running OpenOffice.org for admin purposes. We also have a number of other PC's that we use for computer training classes.

I released a book, mentioned in the original post, that discusses why and how Linux can be deployed in such organizations. Some religious groups do not have much of a formal administrative process, and so might not benefit in quite the same way as typical Christian churches. Still, the lessons of Penguin in the Pew should apply across the board. The book continues to get downloaded like crazy.

Some think religious groups are trying to mooch off the Linux community. On the contrary, many religious developers are already working on special solutions for administering religious organizations - membership and finances.

RNPOs (Religious & Non-Profit Orgs) coming from a Windows environment will be looking for canned packages. One of my goals is to seek out developers who are "religious" minded to help with the development efforts. I have some MySQL tables, and once I figure out how to use OOo with MySQL, I may well have solved half the problem for most orgs.

That was a mouthfull. :)

Don

[WayStar]

RNPOs (Religious & Non-Profit Orgs) coming from a Windows environment will be looking for canned packages. One of my goals is to seek out developers who are "religious" minded to help with the development efforts. I have some MySQL tables, and once I figure out how to use OOo with MySQL, I may well have solved half the problem for most orgs.

Absolutely. I posted earlier in this thread some of my previous experience in non-profits (science centers, museums, etc.).

Other than regular office tasks using primarily word processors, a vector drawing program (like the one in OOo) can be used to create newsletters and handouts.

NPOs often need databases they can use and easily maintain to deal with memberships, mailing lists, fundraising activities, room scheduling, public relations activities, and the like.

The biggest hurdle is probably getting these things set up in the first place. I wouldn't even know where to begin.

-Waylena

[evangelinux]

Originally posted by WayStar
NPOs often need databases they can use and easily maintain to deal with memberships, mailing lists, fundraising activities, room scheduling, public relations activities, and the like.

The biggest hurdle is probably getting these things set up in the first place. I wouldn't even know where to begin.

-Waylena

This is where experienced Linux users and DB folks can help out a bit. We can help organizations determine whether OOo alone will suffice, or if they need to add in a client-server DB, like MySQL. If they have a need for multiple connections to the data, or some web-based functionality, they would benefit from MySQL. While orgs would be welcome to my DB setup,
they might find it lacking for their purposes. Many orgs would need help with database design if they don't like what's already available to them.

We also need to provide info to newbies about what software is available. I'm discovering some interesting projects, such as BibleTime. BibleTime has an interface similar to the On-Line Bible, and allows one to add numerous modules to boot. InfoCentral is available for small church and non-profit orgs. I'm not sure what else is out there.

Anyone aware of software that caters to other faiths should chime in here. I'm pretty sure the sacred writings of other faiths have been - or are being made avialable for Linux users. There may even be administrative apps available for such groups - or for secular non-profit groups.

Regards,
Don

[evangelinux]

Incidentally, I'll be making available the MySQL tables I have already set up, hopefully by tomorrow, but certainly by the end of next week. It's not much, but it is a start. They've been critiqued by some sharp DB gurus (guys who get paid for it), and are fairly simple to understand (for new folks).

The only thing I have left to do is mark the tables (and a script or two) as GPL. I won't include the PHP stuff, as that probably would cause more confusion than anything. :)

Just trying to contribute in my own small way. GNU/Linux and open source in general have helped me in a big way - bout time I gave something back.

Regards,
Don

[maccorin]

my respect for you just went up immensly, because your not freeloading.... i just take that personally

EDIT:
why don't you just post the PHP code as a seperate module?

[thaddaeus]

i have been advocating linux to out media specialist at my church, he just switched over to win small bussiness vserver 2003, and all desktops over to XP. It was actually very simple for him, as one man to do so and to change over about 20 machines +- a few only took about 2-3 weeks.

Now try that with linux, it isn't possible, for one thing it takes almost a day to install and configure a system, not too mention a server (web ftp database e-mail).

It isn't about the free product it is about man hours and the price for that. He isn't a dumb guy, he runs all media from computers systems to sound and video, so it isn't re-leaning an OS, it all about the price of actual configuration time. This is somthing we don't look at when advocating linux, and i urge this to be looked into before the idea to send it of to nonprofit organizations.

Also for a nonprof that has been using any windows stuff, now has a depdanci for some products, and wine isn't good enough to solve this. We use mediashout for lyrics backgrounds and such it is a great tool, but the company dosn't have a linux version and from what i've found nothing is almost lag free for linux, i'm talking about 1 sec delay from click to screen. and most of the video editing stuff for linux isn't the best yet.


This idea would only work for a group whom uses the machines *ONLY* for e-mail, word and internet basic ms office type work,

.
Sortof cheaper idea also using linux
Diskless Server, hosts a linux kernal on a network, a service takes some info from the client (ip mac that sor of stuff) and allows the machine to boot from network using the appropriate kernal, this is just like booting normaly and will be like booting linux live, but from the network instead. This allows for easeir config as one machine needs to be updated and the other machines only need be rebooted.
Server should consist of a dual gigabit nic for speed purposes, and about 2-300 gb for user space, this server can also be the fs (will have to be in some cases) which is another reason for dual giga bit nic. I have done some work on this but my resources are slim, but i will start this project up again.

[GigaShadow]

I am finding this thread more fascinating as time goes by...Maccorin has clearly stated that he is offended by the religious tenor and wants to stick to technical (Linux) issues.. yet he is rebucked with Bill's comment "Then don't participate. This thread is not advocating religion, but even if you think it is, you're welcome to go read something else.".....without discussing faith, I find it fascinating that Maccorin is concerned about being "banned" if he expresses himself about the religious bent of this thread yet those who post (and who monitor the posts.....) who seemingly espouse religion feel "free" to comment. In all the time that I have been visiting this forum I have yet to encounter this unfortunate situation....I can only "read the words" not the intent....yet, the meaning is clear. Perhaps the opiate of the masses is correct....if I am banned for this, so be it....yet, I too have an opinion. No further no technical posts for me.....

G :eek:

[evangelinux]

Let's not start in on Maccorin, please. Maccorin's real concern here is that the religious and non-profit community are not coming to free-load
off the "hardworking" community of Linux developers. I respect that, and have told him so privately. Naturally, I think Maccorin has misjudged my intent all along. My goal is to help folks in a certain community (or market, if you prefer) to realize the benefits of using GNU/Linux and open source software in general.

I also wanted to open the door to discussing specialized applications - and there is a limited set - that such groups need. The Freely Project is working on helping churches (specifically) get into Linux. Whether they will become a resource for available applications remains to be seen. In short, those of us in the R/NPO community need to make an effort to coordinate the development of such applications - discovering needs and bringing together the developers who might be interested in such projects.

OpenLP, Info Central, and BibleTime are three open source projects already available. The developer of OpenLP is a developer looking for another developer or two (or 3 or 4?) to assist. He is interested in taking up my CHADDB project
with C/C++ as the language. Incidentally, I won't release my PHP code for CHADDB because it would probably give the most experienced developer nightmares if not gut-busting laughter. :D

I would be happy to help out (and probably would be more effective) by helping to bring some folks together to work on these issues.

As far as the cost of time issue, I have a very different perspective on things. The church might need to continue using Windows in an immediate sense, and that's fine. Like businesses that deploy new systems in a quarantined environment before rolling out a new deployment in force, the church can choose a gradual
migration path. The church can also choose to play with Linux on the side until it develops its knowledge and skill base.

I've expressed my thoughts on this aspect in an article on our web site "IT as Ministry". I'll keep that where it is. Anyone desiring to discuss that article can e-mail me about it. Open source software in general offers serious advantages for the R/NPO community. It can be shared, studied, modified, and redistributed thanks to the GPL. That means more to me than money.

Regards,
Don

[RodNICE]

I've been thinking of doing a Pro-Christ version of Linux for sometime now but could never really find a justification for a "Christian" version of the wheel.

Wow, cool that you guys have been thinking about it too. Thanx for the link!

[Aetheist]

Do religious people handle Linux diferently when all others? What about Linux for cats lovers?

[evangelinux]

Well, now, if you mean the Nat'l Associaton of Cat Lovers, you'll probably want to develop an open source db for your members (and their cats), your fundraising activities., and special events. :)

Religious orgs may or may not, depending on their size and other consdierations, need a specialized database app. These are already available for Win/Mac systems - but not for Linux systems. Some are pretty advanced, even offering worship planning, etc., if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not real sure about other non-profits.

[Aetheist]

Well, I guess it has sence if there are such things for Windows.

[evangelinux]

I mentioned Linux to a bunch of other pastors, and got a bunch of blank stares. They had never even heard of Linux. For their part, they're too buzy running around visiting folks in hospitals, jails, etc. Then they have pastors' conferences and church meetings - which is the same as a business meeting of a local LUG (although in some cases a lot less friendly) :)

I could slip Xandros on their desktops, and they might not even realize what I had done. Well, they might get suspicious when they don't see anymore blue screens. :) These are the kinds of people who actually could benefit from a solid OS, yet need some kind of canned package to entice them.

A previous user mentioned developing a church-oriented distro. As long as the throw in all the right software - most pastors won't likely use *****-x - that would go a long way toward helping such orgs make the switch.

[Parcival]

My dad works for the water system of our community in his free time, so I guess you can call that an NPO, too, since all their earnings are being invested back into the communities water system.

Anyway, my dad has SuSE 9.0 running on his computer for a couple months now. Although he loves Linux, he's quite frustrated about still having to dual boot. He dials into the internet with SuSE to be save from digital microorganisms, but whenever he receives documents from the community he has to boot back into Win2000 and edit them in MS Office because OpenOffice and MSOffice (which still is the standard, wether one likes it or not) are not 100% compatible (think about bulleted lists and page layouts). While he does all his private matters in Linux and OpenOffice, he just wants to be on the save side and avoid trouble when working on a document with a group of people, especially when it comes to such a serious matter as a community's water supply system.

I guess the really big breakthrough for both home users and NPOs will happen when both Office Systems are 100% compatible. I don't think Billy will be very cooperative on this one, though.

[evangelinux]

I use OOo and MS Office frequently to work on the same documents. I wrote "Penguin in the Pew" using both suites intentionally, as a way of demonstrating that they do work together fairly well for the most part. Even the Table of Contents worked well. I then exported to PDF.

Personally, I think everyone who uses OOo ought to write MS and request that they add a filter for OOo documents. Once they see just how many people use OOo, they just _might_ do something. Whether they'll implement the full spec is doubtful, of course.

Your dad might consider asking people to switch to using open source - because it is something everyone can use. He could always use the ol' "stretching your dollar to the very last mile" approach. Combine that with the fact that OOo and Star Office run on more platforms than any other office suite, and - bingo! - instant world dominance. :D Just kidding.

The biggest problem I had was figuring out how to apply an existing page style (you use insert --> manual page break, and then in the dialogue select the page style you want). Incidentally, I didn't add the page styles until I finished the document. I saved that to do in OOo at the end of the project.

Regards,
Don

[madcompnerd]

Only difference I see is that a church is non-profit and time doesn't cost as much. So they will be more apt to expirament with something that could save them money and cost them time.
For a business time is money, for a non-profit similar to a church it's just fellowship. They really do have nothing to lose.

I've never seen PC's as central to a churches workings. Just typing up documents.

[evangelinux]

In our case, PCs are central to our workings, and may become more so as time progresses. I'm the only one who is technically literate right now. Our secreetary is getting ready to take our CompLit I class, and will proceed with other classes.

Once she completes these classes, she will start keeping our books and doing other tasks on the admin box. However, we use several other systems in computer classes - our first major outreach to the community. That makes the PC central to our ministry.

More and more churches are using computers and the Internet to keep members up to date on current events and news. I know several local churches that use computers with PowerPoint or other presentation software to display info on wall screens. I doubt most churches have gotten that far, and many don't even have computers at all. For those that do, though, computers are becoming more and more a method of ministry.

Non-profits use them to keep track of activities and special events, aid provided (and to whom), and fundraising. For Windows and Mac, you'll find ACS, Servant Keeper, and a slew of others all priced in various ways, depending on your org's needs.

I started CHADDB as an open source solution, thinking I was the only one doing anything. Then I found Info Central, and have discovered some other nifty open source apps out there.

[automatic]

Wow this is a long post ...

Well, I'm working in a NPO now as a full timer and doing my own business as well.

Using Linux and OpenSource / free software is my project since 2002. And now it is fruitful. The goal not only to save money, but to help people stop using piracy software. And to build a communication bridge between Linux and Windows users.

The result is a package of standardized and tested software for both Linux and Windows. If not available for both platform, at least the output is compatible and interface is easy and similar to its counterpart.

We are working on MacOS-X version of it now, but don't have enough resource to do the research. Waiting for a G5 from heaven :D

Anyone who interested doing the same project, or need information on it can PM me. I welcome any NPO who need this also, no matter what kind of NPO or which god you are worshiping (except James T. Kirk, he is not a god in my book).

Regards,

Here are the list:
Image Viewer
- XnView (very similar to Gthumb)
Antivirus
- Update for Norton and McAfee
- AntiVir
Audio Recording
- Audacity
CD_Burner
- Burn At Once
Firewall
- Zone Alarm
Gimp_Windows
Holy Bible
- E-Sword
- Bible for PDA
- Sword Project
- Gnome Sword
- BibleTime for KDE
Internet_e-mail (Windows, Linux, MacOS-X)
- Mozilla 1.6
- Mozilla Firefox (for slower machine)
- Mozilla Thunderbird (for slower machine)
Java Run Times for Windows
Open Office 1 1 1 (Windows, Linux, MacOS-X)
Patches
- Windows 98 update
- Windows 2000
- Windows XP
- Extra
Acrobat Reader for Windows
WinAmp
WinZip

I only have a limited broadband, posting the contain of Freeware CD is not possible, But I can give all the web address related to freeware collection.

[maccorin]

i really don't understand what type of specialized db app you guys would need, but have you thought about implementing it as a web app first (that would be pretty easy). Then you may be able to recruit some extra help once the goal is clearer to move it to the desktop. Plus pastors/secretaries/whoever could use it on winbloze, and get used to the interface before making the jump. I don't work for a NPO, but every place I've worked for switching OS's is just something that is avoided at all costs because of training, etc...

[evangelinux]

That's a major reason why I chose MySQL to build the database. It runs on Linux and Windows, and can be setup for both web and standard interfaces. I'll leave the front-end to the developers who know what they're doing. :D

BTW, the tables are available on our Computing @ Church page (see the Downloads sidebar, as always). It ain't much I admit, but's a beginning.

Don't forget, OpenOffice.org can connect to MySQL now, which means that, most likely, just about any sized church could have a fully functional DB without needing a special front-end. Most of the time, we just want to merge data into an office doc anyway. I could be wrong, but I believe most church admin databases offer some kind of connection with MS Office, especially for mailing lists.

Regards,
Don

[Icarus]

I agree with maccorin, making it web based will save the end users lots of headache before moving to a Linux desktop.
I have a personal mySQL database that has a php frontend I am using to organize my aging comic book collection (in case you didn't know, data entry of ~10,000 books is a PITA, I've got 75 entered so far!)

This method can be accessed using ANY web browser, so I can enter/querry on one system and (if I can get her to help) my wife can enter in new ones on another machine.

php/mySQL is a VERY flexiable and fast system...but like I said, the data entry part is the worst...unless you can convert the old data and easily import it, which is easy to do with almost any database (even Access!)

[evangelinux]

I started off trying to build a php front-end, and discovered I don't udnerstand the deeper programming concepts. At one point, I had some simple table dumps in PHP, but when I tried to change my whole approach, that went out the window. I may still have some of that code, but don't know how useful it would be.

Between a full-time job, a family, and planting a church, I've really got my hands full. I have lessons to prepare - both Bible and computer, plus a sermon to prepare each week. I'm doing well to keep all that together, let alone try to program. If I add developing a database, I might be able to get about 30 minutes of sleep a night. :D

[Parcival]

evangelinux, if creating a database with a php frontend is your problem, then I suggest you check this out:

http://www.reactorserver.com/

These guys are awesome because they have already done a lot of the hard work and both newbies and MySQL/PHP freaks can modify the thing according to their skills and needs.

However, there are two things to point out:

(1) To have the full ease of use you need to download the file onto a Windows box, unzip the file and merely start the corresponding exe to have the server going. Be aware of security issues, though, when proceeding this way.

(2) Unzip the file on a windows machine and move the necessary parts like htdocs folder etc. into your Linux/Apache/Whatever environment and continue hacking there.

A friend of mine successfully used the second strategy, I for myself have the server installed on an old Windows laptop of mine I always keep unplugged from the network when the server's running.
(I'm using the reactor server to build a website for my frat , but because of other timeconsuming activities I haven't dug really deep yet into the project either)

Happy modifying! :D

[evangelinux]

As I may have pointed before, I think I'll be fine once I get time to get OOo hooked up. Assuming the Windows version also connects to OOo, that may well be all that's needed. I, personally, don't need a front-end. Sick as it sounds, I quite enjoy the MySQL command-line! :)

Info Central is PHP/MySQL based, and is a great example of what can be done. That developer is moving to J2EE, and leaving Info Central to a willing developer.

I'll look into Reactor for the Windows side - I rarely use Windows other than at work!

Regards,
Don

[fishyfool]

Funny thing that.
M$ has a program where schools can get windows for free.
they have a similar one for non-profits
http://www.microsoft.com/education/FreshStartQA.aspx
that being said, SuSE 9.1 is what i would put on them.

[evangelinux]

My brother works for MS:eek:

The problem there is that many of the smaller religious and non-profit orgs are not organized under 501(c)(3) . That means they also don't qualify for discounts and freebies. Unfortunately - and this could really hurt some of these orgs - some such orgs could actually be running pirated proprietary software. Imagine if they get caught with it. I saw where one busines settled out of court for $100k.

If that happened to us, that would mean the end of our church - and my house. As a spiritual leader, I have to demonstrate the concept of stewardship and set an example for other organizations and people. That means we run open source software.

I'm able to teach as many people as I have working computers how to use computers because of open source. We've got one lady in training right now that might see her whole life change because she came through our program. I honestly think she has real potential. She ought to be able to get her LPI when we're done with her. That's the power of open source!

[thaddaeus]

Someone posted earlier in the thred about time != money for no profits...This is defanantly not true for the media/tech services at my church. People who work for these orgs do sometimes get paid, i do ( $8 hr). So when our network goes down or our windoze machine stops responding to our audio amps, and so forth, it cost more money to the longet it takes to fix problems. We now use more computers and rely on them more due to our recent implementation of win small business server 2003.

The one thing people mistake about churhc's is they think the enitre operation is diffrent then anything, they think bussiness is "Christian"...although Christ based, it is done in the same mannor as most small bussiness, the politicts in Church would scare alot of people, if they knew what goes on, and i'm not talking catholic.


Any way i was just wondering what was happening with this project idea as a whole or in part, maybe i can jump in and help on something.

[evangelinux]

Actually, The Freely Proejct (freely.jedimoose.org) and Linux 4 Christians(.org) are the two places to hang out for Christian GNU/Linux users. Subscribe to the L4C e-mail list. Freely has forums and an IRC channel (#freely on FreeNode.net). Developers, admins, and regular users are meeting and greeting in these places.

You'll also find links to several projects - some of which need developers to jump in and help out. Freely could use some experienced users, as we'll be offering tech help there in due time. Incidentally, two new eval distros with bible software, etc. are in the works.

Another article - on the growth of the movement - is forthcoming. I have discovered several applications that are very professional in quality and quite popular. Several run on multiple platforms and offer multi-lingual support. I'll post the link to the article when it hits the web.

I will likely be featured in a local Christian newspaper for my FOSS advocacy to the church. The Computing @ Church page on our site is pretty popular as well. In short, a lot is happening right now.:D

[evangelinux]

A new article about using Linux in religious environments is available at NewsForge. See the article, "GNU Believers (http://www.newsforge.com/)".

Excellent overview of some of the resources available.

[thaddaeus]

ok, thanks for the links, i will look into what i can do with my newly busy time frame, as soon as school started i got dumped on with stuff from my jobs to, how sweet it isn't. thanks

[evangelinux]

Hmmm... Let's see. Would you like me to see how much more I can add to your workload? Are you saying you want more work? ;)

Hope you enjoyed the article!

Don