Hi there
I know, you surely heard this question a thousand times before and I DID search the answer in the help files, but I must confess, I did understand nothing!
I'm absolutely new with Linux and I've choosen Vector Linux for my Laptop (because my lappi have only 10 gigs HDD ;) ) . Please don't use technical terms (except the very standard ones) and explain me, how I can install Win XP and Linux on one computer (and how I have to set up and configure the boot manager). How many partitions do I need (including the ones from Win XP; for Win, I thougt 2, one for Win and one for the other Win stuff) and what shall I install first?
Remember: There are only 10 gigs (can I use the Linux's swap partition for Win XP's Virtual RAM, too?)!
The Laptop:
IBM Thinkpad 600E
400Mhz
288 Mb RAM
10 Gb HDD
Thanks!
SA
P.S. Please excuse my bad grammar, but I'm from Germany ;)
Samus_Aran
01-14-2004, 08:48 AM
[note] I would be very greatful for a clear, complete, very detailed explanation (step by step) of the "way" or a link to one!
mrBen
01-14-2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Samus_Aran
Hi there
I know, you surely heard this question a thousand times before and I DID search the answer in the help files, but I must confess, I did understand nothing!
I'm absolutely new with Linux and I've choosen Vector Linux for my Laptop (because my lappi have only 10 gigs HDD ;) ) . Please don't use technical terms (except the very standard ones) and explain me, how I can install Win XP and Linux on one computer (and how I have to set up and configure the boot manager). How many partitions do I need (including the ones from Win XP; for Win, I thougt 2, one for Win and one for the other Win stuff) and what shall I install first?
Install WinXP first. If you can, select FAT as the filesystem rather than NTFS. I've never installed WinXP, so not sure what it can do. While you're at it, you may be able to partition your drive, leaving some space for Linux to use.
Most Linux distros will partition a drive and install a boot loader for you. I have no experience of Vector, I'm afraid.
Remember: There are only 10 gigs (can I use the Linux's swap partition for Win XP's Virtual RAM, too?)!
No. The swap partition in Linux is a particular filetype, which WinXP will not be able to recognise.
The Laptop:
IBM Thinkpad 600E
400Mhz
288 Mb RAM
10 Gb HDD
Thanks!
SA
P.S. Please excuse my bad grammar, but I'm from Germany ;)
Check out the
Linux for laptops (http://www.linux-laptop.net) page for more details on your specific hardware.
mdwatts
01-14-2004, 09:21 AM
Most distros have online documentation on their site that explains the installation process including setting up dualboot with Windows. Have you visited your distros website yet?
Searching the Installation forum over the past few months for 'dualboot windows' should find you previous threads on the subject as I know I have posted the procedures a few times myself.
root.veg
01-14-2004, 09:32 AM
There should be plenty of help available for dual-booting set-ups, but as always, knowing what to look for is a pain. Briefly, what you need to do is:
1) Resize your Windows partition to make room for your Linux installation. If your Windows partition is NTFS, you'll have to use Windows software (maybe Partition Magic?) to do this, as there is no linux program available just now which reliably resizes NTFS partitions. At least, last time I checked there wasn't.
2) Partition the rest of the hard drive ready for linux. It's normal (unless you have *lots* of RAM) to make a "linux swap" partition. You will probably be OK with about 250MB for your swap partition. As far as I'm aware, you *can't* make Windows use a linux partition for its swap-file. It's also quite common to put the stuff you need for booting in a separate partition, and mount it on /boot. The rest will be OK as one big partition. Most linux installers will have a tool for partitioning included in the installer, so I suggest you use it.
For example, you hard drive might look like this after you've done all that:
/dev/hda = your hard drive (assuming it's the primary master IDE device)
Partitions:
/dev/hda1 = Windows - marked as bootable in the partition table
/dev/hda2 = ~30MB? to be mounted on /boot - marked bootable in the partition table
/dev/hda3 = ~250MB - Linux Swap - doesn't get mounted
/dev/hda4 = the rest, to be mounted on / (the "root" filesystem)
3) Install linux. Hopefully Vector Linux has some method during installation to let you set up the bootloader (the common ones are LILO and GRUB), so it can choose between Windows and and Linux.
Right, that's not very detailed because I don't know Vector Linux well. However, it might give you ideas of what to search for. As always www.google.com/linux is your best friend :)
Samus_Aran
01-14-2004, 11:07 AM
thx so far!
As I said, I'm still thinking in "Windows Dimensions", so it's a little bit hard to understand you (but a lot better than in the other forums)...
what does that "mounted" and "mounted on /boot" means? Is this the partition with the kernel?
is it ok to have a partition that is used by windows and linux together (I mean, the Partition with the remaining space)
Do I have to consider something during the dualboot setup and configuration, when I want to be able to have access to the files of the other OS, when I'm working with one?
Vector uses LILO
J-Yo
01-14-2004, 12:19 PM
I'm pretty much a newbie too, so my advice may not be the best, but I can still understand a newbie's perspective.
About the "mounted" thing... as I understand, this basically means Linux is ready to use the drive. This applies to hard drives, floppies, cd drives, etc. When you install Linux, you will have at least one unmounted hard disk partition: the Windows partition. You don't want Linux to mess with this drive because Windows then won't know what to do--that is, when Windows boots and finds the hard disk is different from what it expects, it'll panic and probably give you a Blue Screen of Death TM and then the monitor will blow up.
ANYWAY, the Linux file system, as I think you know already, does NOT use C:, d:, etc. for it's drive identification. Instead, it has / (pronounced "root", I think) under which you find EVERYTHING (I think except for swapfile)--kind of like the Desktop on Windows. Now, something interesting is that you can mount a drive as /root or /blah or /blah/xyz/my_music_partition if you like--that is, the path to that partition (or even that CD drive or floppy drive) can be basically anything you want under /. However, by default I think hard disk partitions are ALWAYS listed as /dev/hda1, hda2, etc. for the first, second, etc. partitions on hard disk a (hda). (btw, if you have another hard disk, it will be hdb with partitions hdb1, hdb2, etc.) The thing is, typing /dev/hda2 will NOT give you the ability to go searching through the second partition of your hard disk. It's a more involved process that I won't go into now.
I think different distros of Linux require different numbers of partitions. Red Hat, for example, requires 3: swapfile, /boot, and /. Yours may have different requirements; look that up in your installation instructions. Btw, it's SLIGHTLY inaccurate to say that the partition mounted as / also contains everything in /. This would mean that / contains /boot, which isn't true. Instead, the partition mounted as / contains everythnig in / EXCEPT for what you mount otherwise (like /boot).
is it ok to have a partition that is used by windows and linux together (I mean, the Partition with the remaining space)
This is something you are able to do with Red Hat and, I would imagine, any other Linux, because Linux can use VFAT and I think NTFS partitions, both of which WinXP can use. I would recommend doing this with a files partition--resumes, disretations, installation programs downloaded off the internet, video game maps, pics, music, etc. If you delete those from Linux, I don't THINK Windows would mind, but just to be sure, you might want to do all deleting from this drive using Linux.
I would STRONGLY recommend against deleting anything in your Windows from Linux (although what's in your MyDocuments folder can go without Windows complaining, I think).
Also, are you using a nice program like DiskDruid or Partition Magic to partition? If you're doing all this via a command line program like fdisk or the Linux rescue mode, then you NEED to figure out EXACTLY how want to partition the disk before installing. And remember, you're limited to four primary partitions; if you want more partitions, make an extended partition, under which you can put four logical drives or more extended drives.
SO, here's my recommendation:
partition 1: /boot. This partition will boot Linux. Also, put your boot loader (LILO or GRUB) here if you can figure out how. (I don't know how myself; I just know TechTV's Leo Leport recommends this.) And this will of course be a ext2 or ext3 partition. I don't know how big to make this; do ask someone else.
partition 2: C:. This is where Windows will go. You won't actually call it C:; Windows just assumes that because it's the first FAT or NTFS partition.
partition 3: D: to Windows, /my_groovy_awesome_files to Linux. You might want to split this into two partitions: one for programs (which Linux probably doesn't need to mount) and one for files (which I would mount, personally). If you do make this more than one drive, you need to put them in an extended partition since you should have no more than four partitions. Also, I believe you can mount the files partition as /home since I think that's where personal files are supposed to go. Of course, these need to be FAT or NTFS so Windows can use them.
partition 4: Make this an extended partition. It will house all other Linux stuff in what we call "logical drives" or pseudo-partitions within an extended partition.
Logical drive 1: Linux Swapfile space. I think this is supposed to be twice the amount of the RAM on your computer. Take into consideration any possibility of upgrading the RAM--that is, make it twice the amount of RAM that your computer is able to hold.
All remaining logical drives should be given to / and any other Linux partitions you wish to have.
So, here's a summary:
partition 1: \boot, with your boot loader if you can put it here.
partition 2: C:, where you'll put the Windows OS.
partition 3: Programs and Files for Windows, and perhaps /home or something for Linux.
partition 4: An extended partition containing:
logical drive 1: Linux swapfile
logical drive 2: /
logical drives 3 and 4: anything else you may want to give Linux. (Of course, if need only two partitions for Linux, don't make logical drives 3 and 4; that is, don't bring them into existence.)
BTW, if you're not so sure about making Linux and Windows share a partition right off the bat, then just don't tell Linux to mount that partition (D:, or hda2) when you install Linux; you can always do it later. I know that with Red Hat 8 (which I have), it's a ton easier to mount stuff on installation than afterwards, but doing it afterwards isn't so bad though; just a matter of following directions in the manual.
Gee, I hope that helps cuz it sure took me a while to say all that! lol. Good luck!
mrBen
01-14-2004, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Samus_Aran
thx so far!
np ;)
As I said, I'm still thinking in "Windows Dimensions", so it's a little bit hard to understand you (but a lot better than in the other forums)...
what does that "mounted" and "mounted on /boot" means? Is this the partition with the kernel?
In Linux you 'mount' physical drive partitions onto parts of the file hierarchy. At it's most basic, you can have a single partition mounted at / (called root, not to be confused with the 'root' user)
Many people setup other partitions, and 'mount' them to other places. For instance it is reasonably common to have a /home partition, so that if you reinstall, you keep all your personal files safe.
/boot is sometimes used as a small partition to hold the boot information. This can sometimes be necessary on older machines with large harddrives.
is it ok to have a partition that is used by windows and linux together (I mean, the Partition with the remaining space)
Windows support for Linux filesystems is (virtually) non-existent. If you want to share files between the 2 it is better to do so on a Windows FAT partition, which both Windows and Linux support well. You will have to specify FAT during installation of Windows XP, otherwise it will default to NTFS, which Linux can read, but write access is 'experimental'
Do I have to consider something during the dualboot setup and configuration, when I want to be able to have access to the files of the other OS, when I'm working with one?
Vector uses LILO
You shouldn't need to specify anything - most distros (again, can't comment for Vector) will detect Windows on installation, and setup for dual boot, and they will set your Windows partition to be automatically mounted on bootup.
Samus_Aran
01-14-2004, 01:25 PM
You're damn helpful, guys! Thx again. Step by step, I understand Linux more and more (especially because of J-Yo's post thousand thanks to you!)...
But there are still some questions left:
This is an excerpt of the Installation guide of Vector:
================================================== ===
The Install Process Step by Step
================================================== ===
If you boot from a CD, after some initial start up messages, you'll
be taken directly to the install screens. If you boot from a
floppy, after the boot floppy loads, you'll be asked to insert the
root floppy, and then you'll be taken to the install screens.
Either way, you'll soon arrive at the install screens. The actual
install is a menu-driven process that should be easy to do - just
follow the instructions on each screen.
1. Start up - just press enter to start the install process
2. Select keyboard map
3. Choose to edit partition map or install to existing partition
note: if you've already set up your partitions using Partition Magic
or another tool, you'll want to choose to install to existing
partitions.
4. Find install media
5. Select partition where you want to install VectorLinux
note: you need to type in the name of the partition. For example,
/dev/hda2
6. Choose swap partition
note: if you already have a swap partition it should be found
automatically.
7. Check files for errors before install
8. Choose file system (ext2, reiserfs, or ext3)
note: ext2 is the older, standard Linux file system. Resierfs and
ext3 are both newer journaling file systems. If you want to play it
safe, go for ext2, otherwise choose ext3 or reiser.
9. Last chance menu - hit ok to format and install
Now my question is: Can you explain me that with the "logical drives" a little bit further. I often heard, that swap needs a whole partition for itself (even in this Instruction, they say that, or do I just understand something wrong or is it just easier for newbies, to give swap its own partition?) and Y-Jo said, that I just need a logical drive...
logical drive sounds a little bit like "(sub-)folder" for me... how can I create such a drive and is it shown to me like a real partition?
Samus_Aran
01-14-2004, 01:59 PM
[edit] some other questions:
1. How does Win XP show me the linux partitions (I mean, when I boot Win XP and then go to "My Computer", what does it display?)
2. How would you split the HDD (10 gigs)?
I thougt, I would use
- 2,5 Gb for Win XP + MS Office, etc.
- dunno how much space for win stuff (maybe 3 gigs... maybe 5.... I dont know!)
- 1 Gb for free space (that the HDD isn't overloaded and I have some space when I have to transport movies, etc. to a friend)
the remaining space is more or less free. On the Vector-Page, they say, VL uses 626 Megs in the full installation, 450 is normal, but you are even able to use only 150! So I thought ca. 0,7-1Gb for Linux stuff (including the OS) or more...
So please give me some examples how I could split my HDD (already with partitionnumbers and all partitions)!
3. I heard, I dont really need a boot partition... when Linux breaks down (unbelieveable ;) ) or there is an new Version... then do I have to format only this partition? Or where is the advantage of a separate boot partition? Ohh, and what is all on this boot partition?
retsaw
01-14-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Samus_Aran
Remember: There are only 10 gigs (can I use the Linux's swap partition for Win XP's Virtual RAM, too?)!
It is possible here (http://www.linux.com/howtos/Swap-Space.shtml) is a link to a howto on it.
Samus_Aran
01-14-2004, 02:57 PM
hmm, it's a HOWTO for Windows 98... I think I don't follow it, because many things have changed... Thx!
Samus_Aran
01-14-2004, 04:12 PM
no other comments? there are still a lot of open questions (see above)
mdwatts
01-14-2004, 05:34 PM
There are too many variables to consider when typing out instructions for setting up dual/multi boot scenarios.
Best if you find a tutorial to suit your needs such as the ones I found in these G4L search results for 'dualboot windows' (http://www.google.com/linux?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=dualboot+windows&btnG=Google+Search). Give some a try and post back if you have any further questions or run into any problems.
Have you tried your distros online documentation yet?
Moparmike
01-14-2004, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Samus_Aran
[edit] some other questions:
1. How does Win XP show me the linux partitions (I mean, when I boot Win XP and then go to "My Computer", what does it display?)
AFAIK Linux filesystems are invisible to Windows. Your linux partitions won't show up in 'my computer'.
On the reciprocal, Linux can read both FAT32 and NTFS...but I have problems when I try to write a file to an NTFS partition when I'm running Linux. On my machines, I keep a separate FAT32 partiton for transferring files between Windows and Linux.
Good luck with finding room on that 10Gig drive! I have 40Gig (25G for WinXP and the remainder for linux) in my laptop and it's almost too small!:D
Samus_Aran
01-15-2004, 10:58 AM
thx again!
Rob Roye
01-17-2004, 08:29 PM
I wish I knew anything about that distro's installer. Installing a dual-boot system is incredibly easy with Red Hat, Mandrake, or SuSE. I've done those frequently, but never with your distro. You might want to try it with one of these distros because they will run well on anything that can handle Win XP.
The other posts have been great and very informative. My only real contribution is this:
First - NEVER run WinXP on a FAT or FAT32 partition. It really hates that and it renders useless many of the features built into it. XP is built off of the NT family and needs to run from an NTFS partition. There is no real reason to run it on anything but NTFS. This will in no way prevent you from installing Linux and making it work with XP. You can even set it up so that you can write to the NTFS area.
Many of the newer installers have the ability to resize a Windows partition, even if it is NTFS. I've done it at least 50 times now and it works very well (remembering that I use Red Hat, Mandrake, and SuSE). I'm actually going to do it one more time on my new laptop as soon as I get around to upgrading XP to Professional. (XP Home stinks, hehe)
Before you install, though, be sure to do a complete ScanDisk and Defrag in Windows. This will insure that all of your files are contigous on the disk and then it can be resized safely. I'm assuming you've already done a complete system backup of your Windows install, so we won't even bring that up :)
The best way to resize a Windows disk if you don't want to let the Linux installer do it (or if it can't) is to use Partition Magic. Get that and boot off of it and you'll see why it's a good thing to use. You can then resize and manipulate to your heart's content. Personally, I'd just set aside about 4 GB of your 10 and let the installer create the Linux partitions. Partition Magic can make Linux partitions easily, but if your distro can't handle doing that, you might want to change distros to something a bit more updated. :)
After that, just make sure you have Windows as you want it and then do a standard Linux install. Either GRUB or LILO will be installed as the boot manager. Both will find and install Windows on the option list. The Control Center can allow you to choose which is the default if it does not ask you during the install. Some of the newer distros include a tool that will even allow you to reinstall the boot loader if you have to reinstall Windows for any reason. This is new and a very very nice feature. Linux sees Windows, but of course Windows actively refuses to see Linux. It's capable of it, but Billy Gates won't allow it cause he's rightfully scared. :D
Just as a note: if you decide to try Mandrake, check their site for the CD-ROM warning. A Mandrake install can physically damage a CD-ROM from certain manufacturers. I've had no problems, but it's best not to chance anything on a laptop with expensive replacement parts.
Good luck and I hope you have as much fun with Linux as I have.