I have a few things to say.

[deanrantala]

I am gonna say this, and there will probably be a lot of people who don't want to hear it, but here we go...

First, I am tired of of all the super "elite" Linux gods thinking they are so much better than those who use Windows, or can't get linux working. You all post crap like "if you want easy, don't use linux" and "linux shouldn't be easy". If thats how you feel, fine, but please keep your OPINIONS to yourself when newbees need help. Linux is NOT only for you binary wizzards.

And as for the latest "GUI is evil" thing that is going around lately: please get over it. I personally rather hand-edit most my config stuff, but that does not mean everyone does. I see this all too much: people will argue and insist that a newbee uses the cli to do everything. Not everyone types 50 words a minute, not everyone wants to learn bash syntax, and not everyone wants to spend their time hacking at the keyboard.

And howabout linux for the desktop? I am really getting irrateted at so many people thinking it should not be used for desktop, and how it is already fine for what it should be. If thats the case, then why is Red Hat not a 64 billion dollar compary? And for those that say maybe no one is targeting Linux for the desktop...Please. Then what is Mandrake and SuSE doing? They do that for their health? And why does everyone get so darn offensive whey people suggest making a Linux distro that is as easy as windows to configure? I personally would like to see one that is as PNP freindly and automated as XP (within reason) is. But that does not mean it has ti be just like XP. (hell, don't all cars have 4 wheels? do you comp[lain, however because corvette makes their sports car with 4 wheels as well? 'cmon...) And why can't it be even EASIER than windows? Like another person often says (you know who you are:)) "would you not then feel special, knowing that "stupid" people can use linux? Not all distros should or need to be easy. Thats the reason for open source: the power to choose. The power and RIGHT to create what we want - not what everyone else thnks we should use.

And as for the "ready for the desktop" line... It is and it isn't.

>Multimedia, well, it could be a lot better. I would be pretty dissapointed knowing I spent all that money on a SB Audigy Platinum 2 to learn that recording 24 bit/ 96 khz 5.1 audio is next to impossible. Hell, I am a die-hard Slacker, and have one hell of a multimedia box with it. But not everyone sees things our way. And some people DO buy them things to do some cutting edge DVD mastering. And NO, that does NOT mean that we should just use windows - that means we need some software that rivals windows-based on Linux. So lets not go that rout.

>Marketing, we need more exposure. Problem: no one promotes linux enough. You can't tell me otherwise. I own my own shop, and in the past 2 1/2 months, have probably got some 100 or more people in the Brandon/Tampa area using Linux. It is all how you promote it. So heres the deal: Stop being afraid of what you think the customer will expect from Linux and let them try it for theirselves. I have had very few unhappy customers. VERY. Now that my shop is closing, I doubt their will be anyone in this area that will support these customers, however, and that is another prob. *sigh*

>Games. We are really getting better. But winex has not made things any easier for us. Why the hell they got to have a bug up thier but about including a distro with a working winex build? Patents, copyrights, intelelctual property my arse. Get over it already. You can't expect to act like M$ and think that will win the market.And you might not want to see everyone with Linux on the dsktop, but then again: you are not everyone else.

And in closing,I want to bring up the "anti-winows-on-linux" feelings that are so rampid. Get ovewr that one too, please. MS might not make the greatest OS, but they make one hell of an office suite. If they made a linux naitive version, I would probably buy it. And it is sad, but true: many apps can be easier to install with wine/crossover than trying to get the native one working - especially with crossover. And you say "oh. it's easy". Well, it is NOT always that easy. And once again, just because people want easy does NOT mean they should not use linux. As I said before, before you jump on someone, please remember:

L I N U X - I S - A B O U T - F R E E D O M

If it works in a way that makes you comfortable, do it. It is your decicion. When people try to recomend "easier" ways to newbees of doing stuff, please stop the "native linux only" attitude and cut these newbees some slack.

And newbees: don't give up! Just cause someone has insisted their opinions upon you does not mean they are speaking for the rest of the community

That said, I hope some people take this seriously rather than not understanding why people don't use linux. Look at htings the way others do. Not everyone wants a hard distro to use. Some people want Linux to look like windblows. Some poeple would rather use KaZaA, some people are interested in 3D GUI's, others are not, some want to edit config files, some want to point and click. Neither sides are wrong. So leave them alone. It is their choice, and it is others right to bring this to others. And if you don't like it, that is opinion. And please don't bash people for having choice, because that is against everything Linux was origonally about.

[ricstr]

If it works in a way that makes you comfortable, do it. It is your decicion. When people try to recomend "easier" ways to newbees of doing stuff, please stop the "native linux only" attitude and cut these newbees some slack.


I understand the point you are making, but if a reply to somones question is given as a shell command it can be run on almost any linux system, where as if the answer was relating to a GUI or User Freindly tool it would only work on a system running XFree86.

Giving a shell command make the answer more re-usable if searching the forums.

[deanrantala]

Very understandable. And I was not too clear with that. It is when people want a nice GUI tool to actually do something like burn CD's (for instance) and they HAVE the GUI installed, but are told they should not use the GUI.

As said before, I prefer doing most things quickly by CLI, but but I still prefer K3B, and Kppp over CLI for what it's worth. My opinion only. Others feel differently.

Yes, it is very usefull and often better when newbees are given quick responses to fix a problem, and that response is a quick command at the bash prompt. But the point being made (just to ******** for others) is that not everyone wants CLI for everything, and should not be bashed for that...

[sclebo05]

nice post, glad someone finally said it right.

to add to the already well said points

actual help - this open source movement will die out if new users aren't acquired and kept on board. not everyone wants to 'RTFM' in this day and age. telling people to 'RTFM' or posting a link to more inaccurate/half-baked manuals isn't going to help anyone. it might even scare them away. i have contradicted several posts in the last couple of weeks. in all of these cases, some 'guru' who doesnt want to take the time to help anyone using anything other than a distro that they compiled themselves (here's a medal) posts a link or 'RTFM'. i had to step in and actually explain HOW to do it with *gasp* gui interfaces, not manually editing files. editing foo.conf when you have a gui tool is just stupid. it takes more time, and usually breaks the tool. it took all of 2 minutes and i HELPED someone. some people can read manuals for days and gain nothing, but if you just show them a sample with some explanation its worth more than all the man pages in the world. we have to remember that not everyone has a degree in computers, nor cares how each section of /etc/fstab works. they just want to play thier dvd and be happy.

usability - this is not the time in linux history to shun some distros because they are easy to use. god forbid linux would start to appear on desktops in large numbers and become an industry standard. i hate nothing more than people telling Mandrake/RedHat users that they run bloated, not-as-hardcore distros and should switch to one of the elite distros. that is the kind of narrow minded and shallow thinking that will keep linux in the corner. linux is linux, and everyone, no matter what distro they run, is an important part of the community. many people just want something they can use, and right out of the box. how fun would it be to get a new digital camera and be posting for 2 weeks on forums until you could actually use it?

elitists - i guess my biggest gripe are these people. most of what i posted above deal with these people who feel that linux should never be for the masses and only really hardcore geeks.

with the social skills of a scorched hard drive, and the willingness to help others of a nazi prison guard, these people have no place on the forums. i love when a 'lee7 hax0r' posts something like "cant help you with redhat, you should try debian because its better". wow, what an intelligent and enlightening post, thanks. but it didn't help anyone. half the time i think these people are posting just to watch the number of thier posts go up. congrats, you have 1,343,547 posts, no life, and have helped a whopping 7 people with your 'RTFM's and 'here's a worthless (or broken) link'.

alright, i'm out. time to help people with linux questions.

[GigaShadow]

I have read (with interest) threads of this nature on many forums and have come to an interesing conclusion (which may be "ok" for the moment). More specifically, it appears to me that those who visit and post to Forums such as this are (for the most part) intelligent adventurers who see the benefits of an "alternative" to M$ OS, explore it..use it, and learn from the experiences. What I feel is sometimes "lost" is the understanding of the Mark 1, Mod 0 User on a PC in the standard business environment. The "normal" PC user in the US with an IQ of around 80 (and feel free to check Google to verify this.....) only wants to do a job and get it completed. It really does not matter to the User what OS is on the PC, only that they can get their job done. We can debate over the pros and cons of any OS for years....and in all, it really does not matter. What (in my opinion) matters is whether or not the User can efficiently complete her or his assigned tasking(s).

I am transitioning to Linux because I "want to".....every PC I work on daily is Windows based....not bad, not good, just "there". If we are to advance Linux then the thrust must be (from and ROI view) how Linux can do the job for the User yet be more cost efficient for the firm. A User's concern is getting the job "done".....I offer that factoring that into the equation of discussions such as this will (and should) add an interesting variable.

I am not a programmer, tech, Manager or other...I am a User who has begun to explore and understand areas beyond the "m$" arena......comments are solicited. :cool:

[bwkaz]

Originally posted by deanrantala
It is when people want a nice GUI tool to actually do something like burn CD's (for instance) and they HAVE the GUI installed, but are told they should not use the GUI. That's partly because some of the GUIs don't even work right all the time. And not all of them show you what's wrong, either.

But the major problem is that not all of them are the same. If your GUI burning program is not the same one that I'm using, then nothing I say is going to work for you. I'm not much help, then, am I? That's why most of us use CLI tools when trying to help people.

Maybe burning is a bad example for this. How about administrating users -- there are oodles of different user-admin tools in different distros, and they all seem to work incompatibly. If I start to tell you to change a user's password by going into your favorite user-adminning program, then how do I finish? "If it's this, then do this. If it's this, then do this other thing. If it's this, then do yet-another different thing."?

That really doesn't work, however "Become root, and run passwd <username>", does. All the time, on any distro, regardless of whether your passwords are shadowed or not (that's one of the reasons editing /etc/passwd may not work -- if passwords are shadowed, they're not stored in /etc/passwd anymore).

As said before, I prefer doing most things quickly by CLI, but but I still prefer K3B, and Kppp over CLI for what it's worth. My opinion only. Others feel differently. It's not a case of what we like better (at least, not for me). It's a case of what works across distros, and across different installations.

Yes, it is very usefull and often better when newbees are given quick responses to fix a problem, and that response is a quick command at the bash prompt. But the point being made (just to ******** for others) is that not everyone wants CLI for everything, and should not be bashed for that... Ahh, the bashing. Of course you're right with that, but my point is (I think) that if you don't learn the CLI tools, then you're most likely limiting yourself to one distro. If someone wants to do that, then more power to them, but I don't think it's such a great idea personally.

And if you don't learn the CLI tools, you're also screwing yourself over if there ever comes a time when you can't start up X. Like if you accidentally delete your /home partition's contents, like I did a couple days ago. ( :eek: -- I was cleaning out unused root partitions, they had /home cross-mounted, and I neglected to unmount it before rm -rf'ing, oops ;)) I didn't want to start X as root, and I couldn't even log in as my user, since they had no home (/ would have been used as $HOME, which is not a good idea).

Just in case anybody cares, I couldn't run through the ext2 undeletion howtos, because I use ext3, and while the inodes were still allocated, the block count and block pointers had been zeroed out, so I had no link between inodes and where the data was on the disk. I ended up using a hex editor with search functionality on the disk device to extract the 4K blocks one by one.

[deanrantala]

sclebo05: good point...

Manually editing some config files in SuSE and (especially) Mandrake can cause them to act ill. So as said before, it is not always the best choice.

When people ask for help, we should be more ready to first understand the users situation, wich includes Finding out wich distro he/she is using.

No one here HAS to help anyone, we all volunteer. But if you are gonna help someone, we should do it in a way that will be easiest and safest for the person asking for help. And furthermore, we should do it in an un-biased way. (Your problem is that you don't use such and such a distro)

Just call me the quality controll dude of linux if you like.:) But it needs to be done, we can't let opinions, biases, and other such roadblocks blur our ability to help others in their quest for a solution - not just an answer.

And true enough: not everyone wants to RTFM. They just want it to work. They don't care how, just so long as it does. Others (such as myself) want to know what is happening in that module, or where the info is being logged to. Some just don't care and want it to do what they want it to do in the simplest way possible. Once again, it is opinion, and our choice of freedom.

[deanrantala]

That's partly because some of the GUIs don't even work right all the time. And not all of them show you what's wrong, either.

That is very true. But people who talk about making someting better are all too often bashed. We travel the speed of sound and put man on the moon: you think that a GUI tool that works perfectly is also impossible? It can be done. And should - for those who want it. For those whp don't, don't use it, or go with another distro. Choice.

And if you don't learn the CLI tools, you're also screwing yourself over if there ever comes a time when you can't start up X. Like if you accidentally delete your /home partition's contents, like I did a couple

That is also true in a way. A "linux guru" would be screwing himself if he did not learn any CLI tools. Just like anyone who does not know how to change the oil in thier car would be "screwing themselves" - but that is jsut a matter of OPINION. For those who can't change the oil, there are service shops. Or the Neighbor next door. Or even a book for when the time comes. Some people just don't care about how their car works or how it is fixed. They just want it to work, and they just want it fixed when it breaks. As I said, neither side is wrong.

[ricstr]

Some people just don't care about how their car works or how it is fixed. They just want it to work, and they just want it fixed when it breaks. As I said, neither side is wrong.


If they dont care then why should anyone else care. People expect to sit down at a computer and for it to automagicaly just know what to do they expect user friendly this and point and click that, but when somthing goes wrong its not there fault because they dont know and dont care and somone else should fix it for them.

People are going about things the wrong way they expect the system to work to there ways, when they should be working to systems ways.

[sclebo05]

i couldn't disagree more.

most people dont know the first thing about the inner workings of a television, car, or blender - and they don't care. i believe that computers are moving in that direction (slowly). the less time people have to tinker and curse at thier computers, the more time people can spend actually DOING something with them. making something user friendly is a natural evolution of any product. :eek:

the average user doesn't have to care about what goes on under the hood of thier system, they just want to use it. we should accomodate them.

[bazoukas]

My only gripe with GUIs is with IT people who are GUI only oriented. If you are an Admin/programmer/Tech you should know how to get your system working by using shell. There is no excuse really.

With ordinary users, really, who needs to recompile a kernel to enable scsi emulation? Tell that to a blue collar worker and he will beat you till your head splits in two.

Its like cars. I know the very basics of cars. I know what I should not do to my car. I dont care how it works as long as it works at the same time I took some time to learn what my car needs in order to be in good working order. I drive a stick. I can do reverse J and also oversteering is a piece of cake for me. Do i know though how exactly my car works? No and I dont care to learn.

Same goes with everyday users. Not everybody wants to learn the inside out of a computer. A great number of people just want to sit in front of it and have it work from the start.
Ordinary users should not be called stupid and some linux elitists should get off their high horse.

The good thing with Linux is that it offers bults and nuts distros Slack-gentoo to really friendly distros such as SUSE and Mandrake. So at the end you can choose your flavor.

I am 100% windows free, but really I dont knock anybody (yes even if they use windows). I would like to see MS go away thats for sure but not windows. I dont like windows AT ALL but at the same time Linux distros have benefited by windows in the area of trying to make things more user friendly. Its a push and pull game that goes both ways.

Giving links that lead to web sites that have half baked/half missing instructions on what to do, is really RETARDED.

I am a soon to be CIS graduate. One thing that they REALLY try to teach us is, DOCUMENTATION THAT IS CLEAR CUT AND COMPLETE.

Have a noob read the man pages or some of the half baked instructions in sites and he thinks a)wow these guys are smart and this is beyond me
b)WTF of a POS OS this is.

If you a programmer has spent countless of hours to make a good application he should devote an extra day in making a clear cut documentation about it. Otherwise there is no reason for a developer to complaint about how his software is not being used. DUH!.

Most of the things I learn about Linux is from forums like these and not from the half baked instructions i find in web sites.


My 2 cents.

[malloc]

Well this is a very very nice post. I think that the questions you raise here are way too implicit in many posts i see here. I do believe that debate is what makes things evolve and progress so let's hope that this thread is a beginning for some kind of positive evolution not only for this forum, but who knows, even for the whole community (ok maybe a dream just a little too big to become true :D).
Anyway here's my oppinion about the questions at hand.
1st - I do feel a little divided in one of the questions, the "Masses/Leet" way of Linux. On one side it's a personal dream of mine to see the biggest number of people using Linux, on the other hand i do fear very much that if Linux turns towards the Masses it will become very "bug-filled" derived of the handle easyness for the common mass user. So i do believe there must be a middle point of convergence. Trying to get to the biggest nr of people but keeping safe and stable as it is now.
So those were my 2 cents :D
Just as a final note...a saying we have here...
"United we stand, divided we fall"
Just think about this, don't let the community die...

[deanrantala]

ricstr: let me make a point...

Do you know what seventh-order hormonics are? Do you know Delta-Sigma modulation is? Do you know how Quantization works? Do you know how to interface with the IC's that do this? Do you even know what any of this applies to? Well, in case you don't, I am talking about the VERY SIMPLE workings of a CD player. Of coarse, it is simple because I hold a degree in electronic engereering. Now do you care what any of this is? Do you care how a vectorscope works? Or how an osciliscope is used? If not, does that mean I (or the person who might have to fix one of your home appliances) should not care about your your problems because you don't know this "simple" knowledge?

Once, again, someone is expecting that everyone becomes a guru at linux. People that use macs don't need to know crap about a PC to use and configure them. And it does not take a rocket scientist to use a sterio reciever. You take these things for granted. And when that stuff has problems, rather than *fix* it, what do you do? Take it to the shop? Buy a new one?

Lets go another rout... Whens the last time you re-charged the freon in your home AC unit? I'm sure you replace the filters just as a normal PC user cleans off the keyboard. But have you ever ever considered replacing the bleeder valve yourself? Of coarse, I'm sure you know what that is, right? Do you know the difference between single phase and 3 phase AC? What would you do if you moved into a place that supplied 3 phase to your AC unit? Would you know the difference between Delta 3 phase or Wye 3 phase? Or would you leave it to someone WHO CARES ENOUGH TO FIX IT FOR YOU???!!!!

Anyone else here get what I am trying to say?

[ricstr]

i couldn't disagree more.

most people dont know the first thing about the inner workings of a television, car, or blender - and they don't care. i believe that computers are moving in that direction (slowly). the less time people have to tinker and curse at thier computers, the more time people can spend actually DOING something with them. making something user friendly is a natural evolution of any product.

the average user doesn't have to care about what goes on under the hood of thier system, they just want to use it. we should accomodate them.


I know that is how most people look at there computers. But they shouldnt look at it like that. This was my point.

This is what microsoft and apple did with there operating systems they create a interface over the system, the user learns to use the interface and its fine.
But what happens when it goes wrong, they know nothing about there machine and only of the interface.
They will need to call the technical support line @ £7.50/min where they get someone taking the piss out of them too keep them on the phone longer.

The best part of GNU/Linux is that its dosnt hide anything from you so the user knows much more about the system and how to fix it.

When installing Linux and other operating systems on my computer I learnt a lot more about the machine and how it works in a month or two than I did in 2 years of using windows.

So my point is if the average user does not care what goes on under the hood, why should any one else care to help them? why dont we just go about cleanning people backsides after they do a **** just becase they dont care how the toilet paper works.

[funkytaz10]

thanks to deanrantala and sclebo05,

for defending the newbies at the forum....
i also am a newbie who OUT OF NECESSITY has to spend our a part of his computing on LINUX because there is no safer network routing environment...

i had (have) troubles with my security under windows, i saw there were problems who only became worse (intrusions, bandwidth going down and other stuff) and realised that i wouldn't solve this in windows without paying more money than i could afford...

so a quick google search told me about linux ...

so i trying, messing around and nearly gave up already a few times, looking for other solutions in windows again (even installed win2K3), realising again that this wouldn't improve my security problems, so that i was in a street with no end....

this all resulted that i made myself angry at the indulgence of the "linux community" to open up to people who need a computer to do something for them but don't want to become a specialist in yet another OS....

and thanks to this indulgence of just spending some time with somebody to learn him step for step what he has to do, does my solution to improve my security come too late and is my system being hacked and wiped....

now don't get me wrong i don't blame anybody... i just wished that this wouldn't have happened.... now i am left with the broken things and do i still have to figure out a solution before i can think again of a presence on the net...

with all this i want to say.... linux is smashing there own windows (AND I DON'T MEAN THE OS) by being a hard OS to learn and to get help for... if it was easier to use and to get help for than more "normal" people would use it and there would be more people who would make good publicity for linux... and so more people could help new linux users... (it is a visious circle as so many things in life)

If i wouldn't have a good reason to learn linux that i would have given up a long time ago, but now i have too....
even now that i found a guy here in my town who will make this router/firewall specially for me an my needs and my special modems, do i feel obliged to learn a minimum of this linux , just because this guy will not move in with me when i have a problem....
I can assure everybody that this obliged learning process doesn't come at a good time and that my other responsibilities and sleep are not improving by this, but I have too....

most people will not do this and just continue the way they were doing before....

so the only thing i would like to ask when people respond to posts, think how you felt by learning nights on a row this new OS??? did you like that??
why not making it easier to the newbie ..... once the newbie likes linux he will explore it more and more and eventually even go so far as making maybe his own compiling..... but if the first impression is bad most of the people just give up....

my 2 cents

funkytaz10

[deanrantala]

<edit>
ricstr:
Please read previous post above, and thank you for you opinion.

Next ?

[ricstr]

deanrantala: your are right I know nothing of seventh order harmonics or delta-sigma modialtion. But I can read and count.

There is difference between trying to solve a problem and standing about expecting someone else to do it for you.

[deanrantala]

Thank you for speaking for those who feel like you do....


Next?

[funkytaz10]

I for my part never expected somebody to solve my problem...
i was on the good way... i found a solution... i just never figured out how to implement my special modems in a linux application alltough i hade linux drivers for it.....

meanwhile i am so far that i know how to implement them into a standard distro but still not to do it in a stipped down distro meant for only networking security (smoothwall)

I posted today in the networking section all my research for finding a solution for my problem... i feel sorry that i have not a solution yet for people in ukraine with the same modem than i have... but monday i will have this specially made mini distro for me.... and the moment that i read that somebody has the same problem as i had and has the same modems as i have ...i will be glad to say to him... "download it from my ftp" or "give me a snail mail address and i will send a cd" .....
it will maybe costs me a few dollars to send it to him but i will go to sleep in the evening knowing i really helped somebody that day....

funkytaz10

[sclebo05]

i think the above post is the definition of 'community' :)

[deanrantala]

i think the above post is the definition of 'community'

Point well said... :)


Next ?

[DarkJedi9]

Originally posted by deanrantala
Very understandable. And I was not too clear with that. It is when people want a nice GUI tool to actually do something like burn CD's (for instance) and they HAVE the GUI installed, but are told they should not use the GUI...

Here, here! (Or is it hear, hear??) Either way, that is the number one example of the "use CLI or you are weak" egoists. CD burning is probably the thing I most depend on a GUI for, and I when I was trying to get xcdroast going, the last thing I wanted to see was "I just use cdparanoia and mkisofs...it's easier and faster." Well, if I wanted to use the CLI, I wouldn't have asked for help on xcdroast now, would I?

True, CLI is often quicker and more "portable" between distros, but that doesn't mean it's the best way, and it definitely doesn't mean newbs should be berated for trying to avoid it occasionally.

And also...
Originally posted by sclebo05
...in all of these cases, some 'guru' who doesnt want to take the time to help anyone using anything other than a distro that they compiled themselves (here's a medal)...

Haha... even being a Gentoo user I have to laugh at the "here's a medal" part.
:)

[deanrantala]

True, CLI is often quicker and more "portable" between distros, but that doesn't mean it's the best way, and it definitely doesn't mean newbs should be berated for trying to avoid it occasionally.

Thank you. Another point well stated...


Next?

[sclebo05]

haha, glad you liked it DarkJedi9, i didn't mean to offend someone who compiles thier own stuff, just people who look down on others who don't.

i compiled a new slack9 kernel and wouldn't wish the module issues i had on anybody! :cool:

[twilli227]

I use RH9 as my desktop and it does what I need it to do. If somebody doesn't like RH or any other distro for some reason, so what. I will use what is right for me. Everybody has their own preferences. Some people have strong belief in what is the best distro.
What I am getting at is, suggest a distro, don't try to cram a distro down someone throat. I have seen a few threads were the person allready has distro A in their possesion and ask a question about distro A and somebody replies with, you should use distro B or C. Well, that sure was a good reply.
It has been said here many times, use what is best for you, wether it is linux or windows. There is a definite learning curve if you want to learn about linux. Some distros are easier than others, and I think are getting easier to use for someone who does not have the time or desire to learn the inner workings of the distro. It will just take time to become more user friendly for the normal computer user.

End of rant

quote:
Lets go another rout... Whens the last time you re-charged the freon in your home AC unit?

Well I hope never unless you are certified to do so. That can be a very costly mistake.

quote:
But have you ever ever considered replacing the bleeder valve yourself? Of coarse, I'm sure you know what that is, right?

Yes I do, but are you refering to an A/C unit?

quote:
Do you know the difference between single phase and 3 phase AC? What would you do if you moved into a place that supplied 3 phase to your AC unit? Would you know the difference between Delta 3 phase or Wye 3 phase?

If you don't know about electricity and what it can do to you, then stay away from it. Believe me when I tell you it is not fun to be shocked.;) Most of the A/C units that I have worked on are 3phase.

quote:
Anyone else here get what I am trying to say?

deanrantala, I agree with what you have been writing here. Just having a liitle fun answering your questions from above.:D

[stiles]

Originally posted by deanrantala
Do you know what seventh-order hormonics are? Do you know Delta-Sigma modulation is? Do you know how Quantization works? Do you know how to interface with the IC's that do this? Do you even know what any of this applies to? Well, in case you don't, I am talking about the VERY SIMPLE workings of a CD player. Of coarse, it is simple because I hold a degree in electronic engereering. Now do you care what any of this is? Do you care how a vectorscope works? Or how an osciliscope is used? If not, does that mean I (or the person who might have to fix one of your home appliances) should not care about your your problems because you don't know this "simple" knowledge?

Once, again, someone is expecting that everyone becomes a guru at linux. People that use macs don't need to know crap about a PC to use and configure them. And it does not take a rocket scientist to use a sterio reciever. You take these things for granted. And when that stuff has problems, rather than *fix* it, what do you do? Take it to the shop? Buy a new one?

Lets go another rout... Whens the last time you re-charged the freon in your home AC unit? I'm sure you replace the filters just as a normal PC user cleans off the keyboard. But have you ever ever considered replacing the bleeder valve yourself? Of coarse, I'm sure you know what that is, right? Do you know the difference between single phase and 3 phase AC? What would you do if you moved into a place that supplied 3 phase to your AC unit? Would you know the difference between Delta 3 phase or Wye 3 phase? Or would you leave it to someone WHO CARES ENOUGH TO FIX IT FOR YOU???!!!!

Anyone else here get what I am trying to say?

I get it; you will come over to my house and fix my CD player and AC unit for free. Yea that's not likely huh? Then you surely will design a tool easy enough for someone ignorant of electronic engineering to diagnose why a D/A converter in a CD player has no output cause the neophyte doesn’t want to use an o-scope and a multimeter? That has to be reasonable right? For free too. I don't think that is very likely either. If someone doesn't want to learn how to fix their problems themselves and doesn’t like what free help is available then they are free to pay for support whether that be for their computer (regardless of OS), their AC unit or their CD player. Why is it that you believe that if someone uses Linux they are entitled to free support on their terms? Maybe because Linux and open source software users do provide free support where as knowledgeable people in other disciplines almost never provide free support.

[stiles]

Originally posted by DarkJedi9
CD burning is probably the thing I most depend on a GUI for, and I when I was trying to get xcdroast going, the last thing I wanted to see was "I just use cdparanoia and mkisofs...it's easier and faster." Well, if I wanted to use the CLI, I wouldn't have asked for help on xcdroast now, would I?

Why is it offensive for someone to mention an alternative that works for them, because it wasn't GUI based or you expect only to get answers about the exact app you are trying to get to work? Would you be as perturbed if someone said something like "I never had any luck getting xcdroast to work for me but <fill_in_another_gui_cd_burning_app> worked like a charm."? If you were not aware of the CLI app mentioned could that be helpful to know of an alternative if you had to burn a CD right away and still couldn't get xcdroast to work? And does one person mentioning an alternative preclude others from addressing your question directly?

[deanrantala]

I get it; you will come over to my house and fix my CD player and AC unit for free. Yea that's not likely huh? Then you surely will design a tool easy enough for someone ignorant of electronic engineering to diagnose why a D/A converter in a CD player has no output cause the neophyte doesn’t want to use an o-scope and a multimeter? That has to be reasonable right? For free too. I don't think that is very likely either. If someone doesn't want to learn how to fix their problems themselves and doesn’t like what free help is available then they are free to pay for support whether that be for their computer (regardless of OS), their AC unit or their CD player. Why is it that you believe that if someone uses Linux they are entitled to free support on their terms? Maybe because Linux and open source software users do provide free support where as knowledgeable people in other disciplines almost never provide free support.

1) Did I say I would fix your AC unit for free? No. I happened to learn many trades in an unfortunate place. Yes. And I was refrencing that to a situation. Yes. And I said I would do it for free. NO. Stop reading what you want to read, and understand what I'm saying. Did I not say THATS WHY WE HAVE REPIAR SHOPS??? Yes, I did. For those who can't or are too lazy to learn something, thats what they are there for. For you to say that peoplke are wrong for wanting to take stuff into a shop is assinine and ignorant.

Also, before you respond to the next post, I want you to CUT AND PASTE THE EXECT SENTENCE IN WICH I SAID ANYONE WAS ENTITLED TO FREE HELP. Do that before you throw more sensless words into my mouth...I do recal mentioning that that our help is VOLUNTARILY given, and that if you ARE gonna do something for someone as a favor, do it right.

Why is it offensive for someone to mention an alternative that works for them, because it wasn't GUI based or you expect only to get answers about the exact app you are trying to get to work? Would you be as perturbed if someone said something like "I never had any luck getting xcdroast to work for me but <fill_in_another_gui_cd_burning_app> worked like a charm."? If you were not aware of the CLI app mentioned could that be helpful to know of an alternative if you had to burn a CD right away and still couldn't get xcdroast to work? And does one person mentioning an alternative preclude others from addressing your question directly?

Did I say it was ofensive? Or did I say THAT PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BASH NEWBEES FOR WANTING TO USE A GUI? Perhaps you should go back through this thread and read it again.

[deanrantala]

It seems so many people still want to screw the newbee. What is the problem? Someone afraid they will not feel special after someone finds a way of doing something an easier way?

My post was to get this message across

" Linux means freedom. If you don't like something about it, then fix it, change it, or have someone do if for you. All three options are yours. What you do under Linux, and how you do it is your choice. No one has the RIGHT to tell you diferently. If you want to change something about it, bring it to a diferent market, or make it behave in a certian way, that is your choice, and your choice should not be bashed: after all, no one has to use it."

As said before.... If you are a super-geek, thats fine. If you are joe-shmo who just wants a working PC, also fine. BOTH are entitled to use it. And NEITHER are REQUIRED to learn everything about it. If you can fix it, fix it. If you can't, ask for help, or take it to someone who can. YOU ARE NOT WRONG EITHER WAY. And to say you are is to speak ignorantly.


Next?

[deanrantala]

quote:
Lets go another rout... Whens the last time you re-charged the freon in your home AC unit?

Well I hope never unless you are certified to do so. That can be a very costly mistake.

quote:
But have you ever ever considered replacing the bleeder valve yourself? Of coarse, I'm sure you know what that is, right?

Yes I do, but are you refering to an A/C unit?

quote:
Do you know the difference between single phase and 3 phase AC? What would you do if you moved into a place that supplied 3 phase to your AC unit? Would you know the difference between Delta 3 phase or Wye 3 phase?

If you don't know about electricity and what it can do to you, then stay away from it. Believe me when I tell you it is not fun to be shocked. Most of the A/C units that I have worked on are 3phase.

quote:
Anyone else here get what I am trying to say?

deanrantala, I agree with what you have been writing here. Just having a liitle fun answering your questions from above.

Actually, I am certified for it. Just never persued it as a career. Same with my electronic engineereing deg, welding cert, and comercial electric cert (IEC).:)

But for those who arn't, and and want that stuff fixed, you know as well as I do that they are not wrong for calling the ones who know how to do it.

If my neighbor asks me for advice or tips on hot to fix his heat pump, I am more tham happy to lend my experience. Doesn't mean I'm gonna go do it for him: thats another story.:)

If someone wants help, I am happy to help. If they don't want to learn enough to let me help you, that is also alright. I can't ACCUSE you of being wrong. Take it to the shop.:)

[CaptainPinko]

how about the 13375 crying about the monstrosity and inhumanity whenever a user friendly distros comes out (eg. Lindows Lycoris Ark etc.)? Linux is FREE so i can do what i want to it. hell if i want to make it bloated and error prone unstable and hideous but then charge $1500 USD/yr for it thats my GPL-given right. or if linux is about choice and people talk about how much they love to customize their favourite WM... why don't they just let ppl make their desktop look like osx or xp (which i like, especially the silver one) and leave them in peace? just check out the comments in the XP theme @ kdelook.org !!!! because you choose to be different means that i have every right to choose to be the same.

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by deanrantala
It seems so many people still want to screw the newbee. What is the problem? Someone afraid they will not feel special after someone finds a way of doing something an easier way?

My post was to get this message across

" Linux means freedom. If you don't like something about it, then fix it, change it, or have someone do if for you. All three options are yours. What you do under Linux, and how you do it is your choice. No one has the RIGHT to tell you diferently. If you want to change something about it, bring it to a diferent market, or make it behave in a certian way, that is your choice, and your choice should not be bashed: after all, no one has to use it."

As said before.... If you are a super-geek, thats fine. If you are joe-shmo who just wants a working PC, also fine. BOTH are entitled to use it. And NEITHER are REQUIRED to learn everything about it. If you can fix it, fix it. If you can't, ask for help, or take it to someone who can. YOU ARE NOT WRONG EITHER WAY. And to say you are is to speak ignorantly.


Next?

...Maybe I should come in here wearing my "Wannabe Linux uber-guru" hat now... ;)

I share many of these sentiments. I don't really think that pointing a user to a manpage is the best route to take. If need be, I'm more than happy to walk someone through step-by-step. Personally, I even try to avoid manpages. Face it, for a new user, manpages suck as far as documentation goes. They, IMHO, were written for people who "really know what they're doing".

But, I feel berating someone over their choice to give instruction on either the CLI or the GUI is wrong either way. If an old guy shows you how he used to use a jack and jill saw to cut logs, are you going to call him lame because they've invented chain saws?

Besides, how much harder, really, is it to use the command line to get something done? Given the overhead that X Windows adds to even a mundane task like updating the icons of a directory in a filemanager, I'd just prefer to type ls and be done with it. While GUI-centric users are pointing and clicking to select all of their files to be moved, I can just use wildcards as filename matchine arguments and get the job done in less than half the time it'd take someone to click on an icon. If you're in Windows, if you can remember to right click on Network Neighborhood, select Properties, then double-click the ethernet icon, then select the TCP/IP tab to figure out your IP address, then why would it be so hard to type ifconfig -a in a terminal window? Know what the difference is? Probably about 30-40 seconds.

I don't feel it's unreasonable to ask anyone, in any OS, to learn the commandline. Keyboards aren't just for responding to posts in a forum ( though sometimes here it seems that way :D ), they're just another way to interact with the computer itself. Personally, when I ask someone to help me with a solution, I'm looking for the best solution. If it's clicking my way through a myriad of menus, so be it. If it's typing a one line shell command, then I'm cool. I look at not wanting to use the command line the same way as not wanting to read a textbook-- a lot of people are afraid to do it because they're afraid they won't automatically understand the content right off the bat. You might actually have to try hard to know what you're doing.

...And not to be too lengthy, my final take on GUI tools: A LOT of progress has been made on them. The suite of configuration tools that comes with Red Hat 9 are a cut above. But, just like how I want a "hard reset" button on my computer, or at least easy access to the power cord, I absolutely, unequivicably, won't do unless I have a manual failsafe, or some way to intercede on something my machine is doing. If there's not a GUI option that I need, I have to know the command line. From a flexibility standpoint, (not ease, not speed, mind you), I've never seen a GUI that's as powerful as its command-line counterpart.

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

By the way...

Thanks for not letting this thread to turn into a flame war-- I think the overall maturity level of this board's improving! :D

[mart_man00]

hell if i want to make it bloated and error prone unstable and hideous but then charge $1500 USD/yr for it thats my GPL-given right
What the hell does "bloated", "error prone" and "unstable" always mentioned but never "nice gesture", "decent", "useful", "needed".

Does that scare you people so much? Do you people spend your entire lives in your parrents basements and live just because your use your special os that every one hates? "It takes 20 mins for to change one setting, i feel special"?

Do you think ever person wants to remember every option, every flag, every detail about every config file? Unless there big into this, no because they have jobs and lives.

X is too slow compared to ls, read my sig. All im hearing.

Thanks for not letting this thread to turn into a flame war-- I think the overall maturity level of this board's improving!
GUess you havnt been in irc in awhile huh:D I wonder how mant people are still crying there(they dont feel special enough, there going back to dos is my beat.).

[plattypus1]

Time for my $.02... I know, you're all just dreading it. :)

The only reason I give advice in CLI is because it's what I know. Gentoo doesn't come with a bunch of GUI config apps, I'm not familiar with the myriad of config apps of other distros (such as MDK, RH, SuSE), and as such the only way I know to give advice is via the command line.
If anyone has a problem with this, I'm a volunteer. I spend my free time on JL IRC (#justlinux irc.freenode.org) when I could be outside running the track or something.

I've said disparaging things about RH/MDK before. However, I've never let them get in the way of giving advice. In fact, on more than one occasion I've said "Try looking around in the Mandrake Control Center". If you want to use RH/MDK, Lindows, or even that other OS with the wavy banner thingy as it's logo, that's your choice. OSS is about CHOICE and FREEDOM, and that includes the freedom to use whatever you want, regardless of my opinion.

And one last point... if you've got a problem with advice, then we can stop giving it. We're all volunteers here.

[deanrantala]

I did not intend to start a flame, but I belive in the spirit of open source, and have gotten tired of many of it's users abusing the rights of open source with their biases and opinions.

It is TRUE that CLI is very powerfull and flexible, but as stated earlier... Newbees should NEVER be bashed for wanting GUI as they often are.Furthermore, many have gotten the attitude that it is wrong to use GUI config tools. Some are as fanatical to think you should use NO GUI for anything. That is a matter of ONES OPINION. I prefer CLI. The next man might prefer GUI. Both are not wrong, and neither should be critizised for their preference.

And for so many people to feel that further advancement of GUI is evil and not needed is also their OWN OPINION. All to often, people here and other forums impose thier personal opinions and biases onto newbees and it can often lead to more frustraition on the newbees behalf.

As for when we help someone *voluntarily*, what ever is the most reliable, and efective way is fine. Wether it be CLI, or GUI. You were right in the tried-and-true ways of doing things. But always remember that if a newbee finds it more easier and confortable to just click a few icons, that is also fine.:)

[DarkJedi9]

Originally posted by stiles
Why is it offensive for someone to mention an alternative that works for them, because it wasn't GUI based or you expect only to get answers about the exact app you are trying to get to work? Would you be as perturbed if someone said something like "I never had any luck getting xcdroast to work for me but <fill_in_another_gui_cd_burning_app> worked like a charm."? If you were not aware of the CLI app mentioned could that be helpful to know of an alternative if you had to burn a CD right away and still couldn't get xcdroast to work? And does one person mentioning an alternative preclude others from addressing your question directly?

I never said offensive. If you interpreted it as that, instead think of it as not nearly as helpful as hoped for. And no I wouldn't be as perturbed if they suggested a different GUI app, because it's still GUI. (Now bear in mind I prefer command line in many ways; this relates strictly to CD-Burning Software). The reason I would accept an alternate GUI and not necessarily CLI is because I find it hard to believe you have a CLI CD-Burning app that is as intuitive and easy to use as a GUI one (also bear in mind I'm not saying that all GUIs are intuitive and easy to use, I'm just saying most [or some] are).

As for the last part, if you expect me to answer in the affirmitive for that, then I would say you didn't read my post too carefully...

[glasdave]

Just my nickels-worth. I have been using Mandrake Linux
since 6.1, and have had a lot of fun. Not everything worked, but some of the same things didn't work in windows either.I'm upto Mandrake 9.1 ,and yes it is a great improment, and most things work. And work well. But, the pace in which new programs come about is staggering. So, you see something you like, download it,
and start the dependancy shuffle. Spending large amounts of time downloading various bit and pieces, which sometimes, conflicts with other bits and pieces, or the instructions are really poor. Man pages are a joke in a lot of cases because they're OLD. I have 13 programs
in my home dir, that I wander through trying it install, when I have the time. The number was much greater, but, thanks to the NHF, I have reduced them to these few. Yes I will be asking for future help, but it is SO frustrating to not be able to something as simple as add a plugin to a doo-dad without adding 2 new libraries, and a partridge in a pear tree. Thanks guys.

[stiles]

Originally posted by deanrantala
1) Did I say I would fix your AC unit for free? No. I happened to learn many trades in an unfortunate place. Yes. And I was refrencing that to a situation. Yes. And I said I would do it for free. NO. Stop reading what you want to read, and understand what I'm saying. Did I not say THATS WHY WE HAVE REPIAR SHOPS??? Yes, I did. For those who can't or are too lazy to learn something, thats what they are there for. For you to say that peoplke are wrong for wanting to take stuff into a shop is assinine and ignorant.

LOL I’m sorry you are taking offence because I don't agree with you but that doesn’t give you the right to put words into my mouth. I NEVER said that it was wrong for anyone regardless of why to seek professional help whether it was to change their oil or to fix their computers or take their "stuff" to a shop to be repaired. In matter of a fact I clearly stated that if someone can not fix their own problem and does not like the free help that is available that they can go and pay for a professional to fix their problem for them (AKA as paying for support)! Got it?

Yea I know you are not going to fix my AC, that's why I said "I doubt it". You are the one drawing correlations between AC repair and electronics to administrating Linux, not me. And yes I think that is asinine because you are not going to be willing to help anyone on the internet with either and if you do and they don't like the tools and methods that you use in these disciples you are not going to modify your methodologies and tools to fit their expectations. Well at least I don't believe you would, hell you might I guess but I seriously doubt it.

Originally posted by deanrantala
Also, before you respond to the next post, I want you to CUT AND PASTE THE EXECT SENTENCE IN WICH I SAID ANYONE WAS ENTITLED TO FREE HELP. Do that before you throw more sensless words into my mouth...I do recal mentioning that that our help is VOLUNTARILY given, and that if you ARE gonna do something for someone as a favor, do it right.

Well so if I don't agree that changing the toolset that I use to administrate a Linux system then I don't fit your definition of helping someone the right way? You are right, you didn't say anybody was entitled to receive free help. But let me ask you this; would you rather that experienced people just not help anybody at all because you don't think the toolset that they use is appropriate? I have some news for you; you are not the oracle of determining what is the right and wrong way to help someone.


Originally posted by deanrantala
Did I say it was ofensive? Or did I say THAT PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BASH NEWBEES FOR WANTING TO USE A GUI? Perhaps you should go back through this thread and read it again.

That wasn't even addressed to you. Come on now, you are going to tell me to re-read this thread when you can't even acknowledge that was addressed to DarkJedi9 and not towards you. That's pretty sad.

[stiles]

Originally posted by DarkJedi9
As for the last part, if you expect me to answer in the affirmitive for that, then I would say you didn't read my post too carefully...

I read your post just fine :-) The point of that last part was that if you just started a thread and basiclly asked "I need to get xcdroast to work" and gave a discription of what you have doen so far and any errors someone that is answering that thread would not know if you just need to burn a CD real quick or you just want to get xcdroast to work.

Yea I do kinda assume that if you say the last thing I wanted to see was "I just use cdparanoia and mkisofs...it's easier and faster." that you took some offence to that answer. That's just me though. My point in questioning you was partlly to show that someone that answers your question only knows what you tell them, nothing more and nothing less.

[stiles]

Ohh DarkJedi9 you ment the "And does one person mentioning an alternative preclude others from addressing your question directly?" question huh? That was a rhetorical question, of course it does not. :-)

[CaptainPinko]

Originally posted by mart_man00
What the hell does "bloated", "error prone" and "unstable" always mentioned but never "nice gesture", "decent", "useful", "needed".

Does that scare you people so much? Do you people spend your entire lives in your parrents basements and live just because your use your special os that every one hates? "It takes 20 mins for to change one setting, i feel special"?

i think you missed my point entirely. i was trying to say that if something is free then people are few todo *whatever* (LEGALESE: within the confines of the GPL) they want with it. if they want to be productive or helpful they can. if they want to be a hindrance they are allowed to fork away and do whatever the hell they please

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by mart_man00
What the hell does "bloated", "error prone" and "unstable" always mentioned but never "nice gesture", "decent", "useful", "needed".

I give credit where credit is due. I just stated that I really like the GUI config tools that come with Red Hat 8. But, yes, a lot of GUI tools are bloated. Seriously, I used a GUI user modification tool, and it sat there for 30 seconds to add a user. Why should it take that long, if useradd only takes a second and a half? Call it bloat, call it bugginess, call it a ham sandwich, I don't care.

Does that scare you people so much? Do you people spend your entire lives in your parrents basements and live just because your use your special os that every one hates? "It takes 20 mins for to change one setting, i feel special"?

The only time it's ever taken me 20 minutes to change a setting is if I've needed to recompile my kernel. But heck, now I use modules, so even that's a 30 second or less operation.


Do you think ever person wants to remember every option, every flag, every detail about every config file? Unless there big into this, no because they have jobs and lives.


I don't know every option or detail about my system. Sure, people out there might, but I know enough to effectively use my system. IMO, that's all anyone should be required to know-- enough to use their system for their desired needs.


X is too slow compared to ls, read my sig. All im hearing.


I wasn't neccesarily referring to how slow X is. I was just making an example. Take an FTP client, for instance. Not because of any graphical overhead, but solely from an interface standpoint, I feel I'm forced to work more slowly when using a GUI tool instead of the CLI one I'd normally use.

From what I've experienced, programmers like to make things more complicated when they start making GUI frontends. Suddenly, an HTML page that says "Hello, World!" is made up of many, many lines, simply because it was done using a GUI tool.

BTW: Check your PM box.


GUess you havnt been in irc in awhile huh:D I wonder how mant people are still crying there(they dont feel special enough, there going back to dos is my beat.).

Some people have more ego than sense. Some of the most intelligent people I've ever met are some of the most egotistical people I know. Trust me-- some will never be satisfied. If everyone stopped using a GUI, and went back to the CLI, then they'd find something else to complain about, like why the compression algorithm they use is better than yours.

[andycrofts]

Kinda sums up what I feel, über-geeks and the Elite
If anyone's ever tried to read the HP-UX man pages for moderately trivial commands (cd, grep, etc) it's pretty obvious theyre written for people who already know the answer..
Once I found an app. (GUI) where the man page basically said "I havent the time to write this, if you're too dumb to figure it out, don't use it".
I deleted the app. immediately, not because of the creators attitude, but if (s)he hadn't the time to write the doc. then the author certainly hadn't the time to test it for vulnerabilities, etc.

Here's my point. I learn Linux as well as I can, so that other peple I help don't need to.
As I said in a document I'm writing about making a webserver work.....

Now, there'll be a lot of purists out there who are über-command-line hackers, who'll tell you that this isn't the 'proper' way to do it. I say it depends on the objective. My objective is to get a reliable, secure webserver up and running so I can go live. As simply, and as soon as possible.
Put it this way. If you got a new job, and needed to learn to drive so you could get to work, some purists (Let's call them Mr. Slack and Mr. Gent) would take you by the hand, lead you to this warm garage full of the best tools, pistons, bearings, panels, nuts, bolts – everything you could possibly need to build a wonderful, fast, sporty car. You'd get a (possibly) out-of date manual, and the phone numbers of 50 people all happy to help you. In 50 different ways.
You'd lose the job, because you couldn't get to work on the first day. But, hey, you're learning how to make a car.
Did we lose sight of something here?

..wwich was a friendly dig at the 1337 crowd. Or, maybe just a dig...

The GUI is productive. Period. Try editing a commercial document with emacs. Sure, it can be done and some would say it's worth getting the skills to be able to do this.
Nuts. Most people have enough trouble learning enough skills to just about do, and keep, their present jobs.
Part of the problem, or part of the solution?

The ace situation with anyone for me would be when they've produced a document/presentation/set of accounts/played a CD and they didn't even know on what OS they were working, and furthermore they couldn't give a rat's arse.

Oh, by the way, on Bloatiness. It's usually caused by "feature creep" which is the inevitable product of shortcuts made at the planning/specification time. Rule of 6 P's.
Perfect Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

</rant>

[ozdream]

Originally posted by sclebo05
not everyone wants to 'RTFM' in this day and age.


That is way we have a current, Dumb-ing down of society a “Point and click” world, with instant gratification with little thinking,

A Billy Gates wasteland :D

[deanrantala]

where to begin??


stiles... Fist, let me apologize if you feel I have put words is your mouth. To begin, I never meant to imply that you said it was wrong to take stuff to a repair shop. But I belive the statement you said in reference to asking wether I would fix someones AC unit for free was of little relavence to the topic of this whole thread. I still do not understand why you asked me if I would do that. I never recal posting anything that even suggested I would do that. So with that out of the way, let me bring up the second point.

Well so if I don't agree that changing the toolset that I use to administrate a Linux system then I don't fit your definition of helping someone the right way? You are right, you didn't say anybody was entitled to receive free help. But let me ask you this; would you rather that experienced people just not help anybody at all because you don't think the toolset that they use is appropriate? I have some news for you; you are not the oracle of determining what is the right and wrong way to help someone.

OK.. Did you even understand what I meant by stating we should help people out right? Let me ******** my definition... I did NOT ever state or suggest that we should only help someone with a particular toolset or in any exect way. My whole point in what I have been trying to say - one of the reasons I started thes thread - was that we NOT jump on newbees for wanting to do something a certian way. I AN NOT the oracle of determining how you or anyone should help out, and I never meant to make it seem as such, but I do have a certain right to state that anyone who feels that anothers way of doing something (such as using GUI or CLI) should not be done as such simply cause they don't like doing it like so is wrong. If you can help, please feel free do do so. In the best way you feel you can - if you want to,. that is. But for someone to reply to a post like this...

" If you want it easy, don't use linux"

or

"You should not use GUI config toopls for linux"

or other such statements is wrong, and I think many others will agree with me here. Those kind of statements are ones own opinion. I, for one, prefer CLI for admin and config. But when I see someone who posts for help and Use mandrake, I try to tell them how to not only fix the prob from cli - but I also give them an easy way to solve the issue through the mandrake control center. Why? because I was once a newbee and I want them to fix the problem in a way they will feel most comfortable with. Don't belive me? Read some of my help relpies here. So, I am not trying to dictate how anyone helps out here, I am trying to let you all know that we do not need to be making highly opinionated statements on reply to help that will only make the newbee looking for help feel like crap.

Does so many people have such a hard time seeing what I am trying to say?

That wasn't even addressed to you. Come on now, you are going to tell me to re-read this thread when you can't even acknowledge that was addressed to DarkJedi9 and not towards you. That's pretty sad.

I am sorry for that one. I was on "code red, wanna rip some throat out last night" mode. I did not take notice that you had directed that to another person. I have gotten so mad at the gereral fact that there are so many "gurus" out there that think they are

1) Too good to help newbees

2) Think that Linux is too good for simple people who just want a workinf OS.

or

3) Think that Linux should not be made any more user freindly - or should not be made any harder. (However one wishes to alter his own distro is his GPL givie right)

So after seeing people argue that I am wrong by stating this is what has had me so upset. Do you at least see where I am comming from on this one? THAT was my biggest reason for starting this thread. My trip to becoming a competant Linux user was not an easy one. Perhaps a little rougher than someone new to windows - or even BeOS! And while it might have somewhat been my fault in some ways... The fact that I had so much negitive feedback from "the gurus" did not make things any better.

That is way we have a current, Dumb-ing down of society a “Point and click” world, with instant gratification with little thinking,

A Billy Gates wasteland

ozdream, I respect you opinions on this, but please, PLEASE would you all start understanding that not everyone thinks like this? "not everyone" probably speaks for 85% of the desktopPC user base. It is true, sosciety has experienced a "dumbing down". But it has not started with the advent of copmuters. This has been ongoing since the invention of the wheel - and even before that. Man has always seeked faster, easier, and more eficeint ways of getting stuff done ever since he has walked the earth. And he has constantly tried doing this in ways that require him to think less. It never started with the windows. MS has only done what every other human being has done before us, and tht is not wrong. It is just how they feel. Their choice. And it is the natural way of mankind to do stuff. We might not all seek ways to apply this to linux, maybe one of you just use this insituations where you use a board for leverage to move something. But we all do it at some point in our lives. We all seek easier, faster, and "dumbed down" ways of doing stuff from time to time. To say otherwise is a lie and to say you are not human.


Next??

[funkytaz10]

geeesssh guys,

didn't know that there were still so much classic cars around in the world that you have to swing the engine to work..... :D :D
If everybody was against progress and doing things easier so you could relax more and enjoy your family than we would still all be in slavery and rowing a galleon as slaves in the romans time.....

just see it that way...
first computer was 30 tons heavy and had more lightbulbs than the empire state building....
would you like this in your home???

or do you like your computer as he is now???

if inventors didn't want us to use the computer , they could have left him the original way and only a few people would be "smart" enough to work with him...
thanks to graphical display's and push icon technology computers made there way into your home, maybe you and others here don't like but this made your computer affordable.... when did computers really made there way into houses?? not with dos, but when the first apples came on the market with their graphical displays .... i had a stupid commodore 64 as my first computer capable of only dos, my father paid himself blue for the stupid thing (4 times the cost of my actual computer), than i got an apple who was already much cheaper and than i got the windows 3, since that time computers only got cheaper...
this is economy, people want wurth for there money... if they have to spend tooooo much time before a computer to let us say play a stupid cd than they don't like this and less computers would have been sold...
and than your computer would have costed maybe 10.000 $....

i know it is a sily example but every day when i sell a second hand computer here in my town, first thing people ask me if they can play cd's on it??? why because they see this computer as a stereo where they can play games and type a letter on.... not my idea of a computer ...but here in Ukraine most people don't have the money to buy and a stereo, a gameboy and a computer .....
so they want a computer that can do everything, and be very easy to handle... i get a lot of time a computer back to "repair" because darling son has played the newest game and was sick and tired of it and erased more than the game from the HD... than i say people just put the (sorry windows) os cd and do a repair install but even that is too difficult for the people....

This was my lesson about economics :D :D

funkytaz10

[deanrantala]

<edit>

I have slightly changed the topic of this thread to better suite it's definition. Just so someone does not think I am trying to "switch subject"

</edit>

Next??

[bandwidth_pig]

People get so caught up in the social aspect of message boards, they forget the whole reason this place exists, or at least in my opinion. Too many use this site as a sounding board for their own opinions. That isn't what this site is about. It's about sharing knowledge. I know I am going to make some people a little uptight with this, so if your one of those people, you'll have to forgive me. But there are so many wanna be moderators here it is repulsive. Leave it to the mods as to what is an acceptable post and way of helping people. That is their purpose. Our is either to help or be helped. The rest is inmaterial. One form of zealotry (RFM..CLI...so on) Vs anything for the newbie isn't any better than the other. Opinions are for Slashdot.

[ozdream]

Originally posted by funkytaz10
If everybody was against progress and doing things easier so you could relax more and enjoy your family than we would still all be in slavery and rowing a galleon as slaves in the romans time.....

Yes, but now we are Wage slaves:p

[deanrantala]

Originally posted by bandwidth_pig
People get so caught up in the social aspect of message boards, they forget the whole reason this place exists, or at least in my opinion. Too many use this site as a sounding board for their own opinions. That isn't what this site is about. It's about sharing knowledge. I know I am going to make some people a little uptight with this, so if your one of those people, you'll have to forgive me. But there are so many wanna be moderators here it is repulsive. Leave it to the mods as to what is an acceptable post and way of helping people. That is their purpose. Our is either to help or be helped. The rest is inmaterial. One form of zealotry (RFM..CLI...so on) Vs anything for the newbie isn't any better than the other. Opinions are for Slashdot.

Well, I sorry if I'm the only one who has the nerve to say it like it is. Please read the entire thread, and you will see MY message, and my reason for saying what I have. It is the way people are getting treated. And mods or no mods, I am not stating my own opinion, but how newbees who comes here for help should be treated. They are human beings. Just 'cause they can't or don't want to master the CLI or use GUI, does NOT give any of use the right to chew them down for it. Just casuse they want too have an even easier conif tool, or an office app that works just a little better, or harder does not give me, you , or anyone the right to act so slimy towards them. If anyone here feels I am wrong and that it is FINE to treat these people like they are ****, then excuse me for for being man enough to speak against what is wrong.

If the "Real Mods" think I am wrong in the message I am trying to get across, fine. I will take my freely devoted time to a place where others respect the fact that not everyone knows or wants to know the very explicit details of their OS to make it work.

Yes, you are 100% right in the sole purpose of this site. But first, remember this IS the random forum, and that this thread IS about the quatity at wich we are treating, respecting, and acting towards others and their opinions. Why do so many people here boast the "linux is freedom" quote, but then turn around and jump on another person for having preferences and opinions? Thats a little contradictary.

And no one STILL does not understand what I'm getting at?

You all can hack 100's of lines of code, you can set up FTP server, http servers, and all the other stuff, but are not sharp enough to understand what I'm getting across? Let me say it in the most blunt way I can think..

NO ONE HERE IS GOD. NO ONE HERE HAS THE RIGHT TO DICTATE HOW OTHERS FEEL. NO ONE HEAR HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE ELSE THEY ARE WRONG FOR HAVING PREFERENCES AND OPINIONS.

What is so hard to understand about that? Why does everyone HAVE to keep arguing the fact? Are there people here that are offended over the fact that I speak for those who just want to be treated with a little decency wether or not they wish to be layman or expert?

And the next one who feels treating others crappy like this is fine????

[GigaShadow]

I accept your vehemence with this issue. The question is, where are you going with it? My experience shows that with any community the primary driver is the diversity of opinion....and from what I have gleaned from this Forum that is exactly what we have. If a Moderator edits/deletes something that I have posted (which has not happend with my few posts) I can only but believe that I will be contacted with "reason". It seems to me that the very nature of our conversation is to "learn by debate and the interplay of ideas"? I am quite new to Linux and very high up on the Learning Curve...I find that when an answer to one of my questions is beyond my "current" comprehension then I just "dig in deeper" to learn more. :) Everything is not for Everybody....for all, nothing else need be said. I am here, I learn and I enjoy....frustrating that it may be sometimes, the attainment of knowledge is a free path that is not always easy.

Perhaps the issues of which you speak are really part of the entire "process" and not an aberation....think about it. Why rant when there is no goal to achieve?:confused:

[deanrantala]

The question is, where are you going with it?

heres the answer..

NO ONE HERE IS GOD. NO ONE HERE HAS THE RIGHT TO DICTATE HOW OTHERS FEEL. NO ONE HEAR HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE ELSE THEY ARE WRONG FOR HAVING PREFERENCES AND OPINIONS.

_______

Why rant when there is no goal to achieve?

Heres my goal...

What is so hard to understand about that? Why does everyone HAVE to keep arguing the fact? Are there people here that are offended over the fact that I speak for those who just want to be treated with a little decency wether or not they wish to be layman or expert?

What part of these words are not being understood??

Decency

Respect

Acknowledgement of ones ideas, feeling, opinions, and preferences?

Why don't anyone STILL not understand what I'm saying???!!!


"learn by debate and the interplay of ideas"

That is very true. But there is a line between saying you don't like what someone thanks or likes to do, and saying they are wrong for thinking the way they do. Still don't understand people?

Example.. Person1 says he wants to make a 3D desktop. Person2 thinks its a dumb idea. Person1 argues why it would be nice. Person2 counters that. Nothing wrong with this scenario thus far. Hell, person1 might even learn something valuable from this, or vise-versa. But wait..... Person2 now says, "nobody needs a 3D desktop, and your stupid for wanting to do it" or he says "I don't know why people like you always want to do this kind of crap". This is scolding someone with your own opinions. And when newbees are looking for help, this is the last thing that needs to be happening.

Still don't understand??

[bandwidth_pig]

Originally posted by deanrantala
Well, I sorry if I'm the only one who has the nerve to say it like it is. Please read the entire thread, and you will see MY message, and my reason for saying what I have. It is the way people are getting treated. And mods or no mods, I am not stating my own opinion, but how newbees who comes here for help should be treated. They are human beings. Just 'cause they can't or don't want to master the CLI or use GUI, does NOT give any of use the right to chew them down for it. Just casuse they want too have an even easier conif tool, or an office app that works just a little better, or harder does not give me, you , or anyone the right to act so slimy towards them. If anyone here feels I am wrong and that it is FINE to treat these people like they are ****, then excuse me for for being man enough to speak against what is wrong.

If the "Real Mods" think I am wrong in the message I am trying to get across, fine. I will take my freely devoted time to a place where others respect the fact that not everyone knows or wants to know the very explicit details of their OS to make it work.

Yes, you are 100% right in the sole purpose of this site. But first, remember this IS the random forum, and that this thread IS about the quatity at wich we are treating, respecting, and acting towards others and their opinions. Why do so many people here boast the "linux is freedom" quote, but then turn around and jump on another person for having preferences and opinions? Thats a little contradictary.

And no one STILL does not understand what I'm getting at?

You all can hack 100's of lines of code, you can set up FTP server, http servers, and all the other stuff, but are not sharp enough to understand what I'm getting across? Let me say it in the most blunt way I can think..

NO ONE HERE IS GOD. NO ONE HERE HAS THE RIGHT TO DICTATE HOW OTHERS FEEL. NO ONE HEAR HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE ELSE THEY ARE WRONG FOR HAVING PREFERENCES AND OPINIONS.

What is so hard to understand about that? Why does everyone HAVE to keep arguing the fact? Are there people here that are offended over the fact that I speak for those who just want to be treated with a little decency wether or not they wish to be layman or expert?

And the next one who feels treating others crappy like this is fine????

I didn't say I felt treating people poorly was an acceptable practice. I don't think that it is acceptable. I don't think yelling is an acceptable practice either. I didn't chew down anybody, and didn't engage in any argument. I just stated my opinion in a fairly non inflamatory fashion. Blunt as you put it. And it apparently upset you, or your just overly excited about your own position in regards to this subject. But if I might make a suggestion, you can make your point much more effectively without all the emotion. :D

[sclebo05]

the reason i posted on thier board is because i wanted to clarify my dislike for 'factions' of linux users. i feel that we should all be working together, and acknowledge that everyone has a place in the community.

if someone asks for a command line solutions, give them a command line solution and nothing else. if they want a gui solution, give them a GUI solution because that is what they are comfortable with (they wouldn't ask for GUI if they didnt want it). if they cant have gui, or need CLI to solve it, that is fine, but explain that to them. dont ram something down someone's throat because it will 'enlighten them' to your level.

i would like to see more cooperation on the boards, and fewer posts from self righteous uber-geeks who feel they are smarter than the rest of the world.

'Re-write The F*n Manual'

[deanrantala]

Originally posted by bandwidth_pig
I didn't say I felt treating people poorly was an acceptable practice. I don't think that it is acceptable. I don't think yelling is an acceptable practice either. I didn't chew down anybody, and didn't engage in any argument. I just stated my opinion in a fairly non inflamatory fashion. Blunt as you put it. And it apparently upset you, or your just overly excited about your own position in regards to this subject. But if I might make a suggestion, you can make your point much more effectively without all the emotion. :D

Point well considered:)

[bandwidth_pig]

Originally posted by sclebo05


i would like to see more cooperation on the boards, and fewer posts from self righteous uber-geeks who feel they are smarter than the rest of the world.

Rules of common sense apply, which I think is the uber-geeks biggest argument. The uber-geeks goes off because the question has been answered 1000 times (can you say NVIDIA drivers?). Yet, the ironic thing is, the uber-geek just engaged in the very act they claim to find so repulsive. Lack of common sense. As in, if the uber-geek finds the question to be such a waste of time, then why answer it? Why post to the thread? IMHO, better to leave that to somebody else who knows the answer, and would feel good about answering it because they too are a newbie, yet get to feel good about helping somebody with a problem they just had. Yes I do get it. Again, the irony is the whole uber-geek concept is so 90s. Linux is fairly common now. I run into people on a regular basis who use it. It's only amusing when you spot the "newbie uber-geek". The newbie uber-geek is somebody who thinks they are somehow above everybody else because they use linux now. It's like uh....you know...that really isn't new...and that whole concept of uber-geekness you have...it's circa 98ish. And those hacker webpages you have been reading...they haven't been updated in 4 or so years. You did notice that right? LOL. Guess what...they didn't notice. Ahhh...the old "strange world of Tapu"...anybody remember that one?

[DarkJedi9]

Originally posted by stiles
Ohh DarkJedi9 you ment the "And does one person mentioning an alternative preclude others from addressing your question directly?" question huh? That was a rhetorical question, of course it does not. :-)

Yeah, that was just me being a little whiny; no hard feelings. :)

I'd say we both see where the other is coming from now, so I will edit my stance on the subject a little to say that, while it is okay for someone to suggest an alternate (even CLI) method to a problem with a GUI app, it is not okay to just say, "Your method is utterly wrong; use mine!!!" That work for you?

And I say pats on the back for all involved for not letting tempers get the best of us (at least not too much :)).

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by ozdream
That is way we have a current, Dumb-ing down of society a “Point and click” world, with instant gratification with little thinking,

A Billy Gates wasteland :D

...Actually, if you wanted to get picky, you could call it an "Apple Wasteland", or a "Xerox wasteland", because they were doing GUI before Microsoft hit the block.

I'm sure El_Cu_Guy will come on here and correct me with who exactly came up with the idea of a GUI, but I'm just trying to illustrate that there's nothing new under the sun with Microsoft, or any entity, trying to make a GUI based, "user friendly/newb friendly" operating environment.

But... let's stay on topic, folks! I think we've got a good dialog going!

[GigaShadow]

deanrantala, as I said earlier I do believe that I understand your position and am in agreement with it. However, I come back to my question of "what do you intend to gain"? An emotional outburst (yelling....) often servers in a negative manner. Case in point, how many folks have responded/read your rant? Other than stating your postion have you achieved anything? Are "you" (or I....) even in a position to affect the process?? When I encounter a situation that I feel needs alteration I assess my ability to engender change...if I can and I feel that the situation warrants it I move forward. If not, I am simply jousting at windmils....have you directly discussed your issue with a Moderator? There are many ways to get into a house besides the front door.....

G :cool:

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by GigaShadow
deanrantala, as I said earlier I do believe that I understand your position and am in agreement with it. However, I come back to my question of "what do you intend to gain"? An emotional outburst (yelling....) often servers in a negative manner. Case in point, how many folks have responded/read your rant? Other than stating your postion have you achieved anything? Are "you" (or I....) even in a position to affect the process?? When I encounter a situation that I feel needs alteration I assess my ability to engender change...if I can and I feel that the situation warrants it I move forward. If not, I am simply jousting at windmils....have you directly discussed your issue with a Moderator? There are many ways to get into a house besides the front door.....

G :cool:

He's free to post his opinion here. He's not being vulgar, rude, or insulting. He's not violating the Community Help Posting Guidelines or the AUP.

I think the issue he's brought up is a very valid one, even if it is rant-ish. There are some CLI-only folks out there with egos so big, they're going to suffocate. :)

[sclebo05]

bandwidth_pig , i agree wholeheartedly with the 'common sense issue. some newbies dont look or use common sense, this is true. i feel most of the time, however, that someone with say 3 posts under thier belt doesnt know A) what a man page is and B) how to effectively search the forum for what they are looking for. example: someone completely new to linux has an old Diamond Viper video card they want to use. they search the forums for 'diamond viper 32 meg' and get nothing. they don't know that a better search is 'NVIDIA glx driver' because they might not know ANYTHING about the subject.

that is what we are here for. we all have asked silly questions about linux, i guarentee it. if you haven't, your last name is probably Torvalds. :)

[GigaShadow]

Alex...perhaps I was not as clear as I could have been with my response. I take no offense at the posting nor do I think it out of bounds (as if my opinion mattered...). Rather, my query was one of direction.....if there is a point to be made and an end to achieve then can one actually go there? I have seen many posts that I felt probably put someone off and perhaps did. Yet, I wonder if such freedom is not acutally part of this entire process? The ability to "rant" or express ones self is important....something I support completely. However, if a project has no goal then what is the point? Then again, is an end product necessary at all? :D

[Gertrude]

Who is anyone to judge what is good help or bad help? That is as long as the help that is getting posted is correct in some way. Even if it is suggesting to use another application, or to go about solving a problem in a different way. If that person doesn't like the solution that was suggested, there is nothing forcing him to go that direction.

I am certainly not going to stop trying to help someone because I don't use KDE, and don't know how to change a IP address within KDE, but do from a CLI.

Don't complain about free help. If the solution being imposed upon you is not suitable for your specific needs then discard it and go on with your life.

[^DoCtOr^]

Probably we should embrace Linux the same way as a kid going to school on the first day. No more yelling and crying for milk. Sit there and be a good boy, whatever you want, raise your hand. RTFM is mostly the culture of the open source world just as is the monotonous culture in school.

The change may be big for someone who has totally no idea what's bash or unix, but everyone has gone through this stage before. Becoming independent is always good, although sometimes a little push or tip from someone in times of desperation wil be comforting but there are always people who seek to be spoonfed right from first day of school.

I won't mind helping whoever I can but if they are looking for smooth sailing rides, sorry to say Linux is full of bumps and head knocks. I am still a newbie and I went into enough crashes to know what rm -rf / was. :)

[deanrantala]

Wow... this thread has gotten a lot of veiwing this past couple days... I'll get to my point with that in a few...

Alex...perhaps I was not as clear as I could have been with my response. I take no offense at the posting nor do I think it out of bounds (as if my opinion mattered...). Rather, my query was one of direction.....if there is a point to be made and an end to achieve then can one actually go there?

What do you not get? I have posted this so people will SEE IT!! So that when them people with egos the size of texas read this, they will see how others feel and (hopefully) ease up a little. If what I said does not apply to you, then you don't have to worry about it. I want to actually TELL those who have the issue at hand HOW IT IS. And so far, I am the only one here who has had the nerve to go all out with a post to do so. I am not intentionally trying to flame anyone here, or accuse anyone of being strait-out *** holes. I am trying to ask those who have the problem at hand to reconsider how they are acting towards others.

And if someone feels I need to go through the mods (i.e. "the authorities"), then I do feel sory for you. We should be able to address eachother like adults, and resolve problems without having to "call our mommys" (i.e. "the mods") I posted this so EVERYONE can see it. Not just MD, or bprofit, or one of the others... But for everyone - including the ones at wich we have the prob at hand.

Gurtude: please don't think I am judging how we should help. Me initial post may have seemed that way, but my message is clear: RESPECT. Please re-read the whole thread, I have stated what I mean by this enough times already.

And as for what I first said about all the traffic this thread has gotten: SEE GigaShadow? It must be working 'cause it has had over 300 veiws so far!!!!!!!!!! So my purpose is being served!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PEOPLE ARE SEEING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D :D :D

[deanrantala]

Update: 979 views.

I hope some of you who are reading this and to whom this applies, that you actually take this seriously. Please take it as freindly advice and not as an insult. After all, that is what I have been against this whole time:)

Mods: thank you for putting up with my **** :D Sory it had to come to this... I normally am NOT one to post like this as you should know:)

Lets see how many more get a looksee by tomorrow morning, in the meantime, I'm going to bed.... gonna try counting penguins :)

[deanrantala]

1024 views....

thats great... I hope this has finally gotten to those it needs to by now.

[GigaShadow]

Point taken! Now, to see if any "action" is taken per your comments.

G :D

[deanrantala]

Hopefully, so.

But remember: even if it only makes a diference with one person, then it has served purpose. :)

back to the posts....

[DMR]

Originally posted by deanrantala
We should be able to address eachother like adults, and resolve problems without having to "call our mommys" (i.e. "the mods") Exactly. As Alex said- as long as a post is civil and within the bounds of our posting guidelines, it' valid.

Um, BTW- the "mommy" analogy sort of breaks here, considering the fact that none of us (the mods) are female. :p

(Well, OK- Mike does wear dresses once in a while, but we let that slide for the most part...)

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by DMR
Exactly. As Alex said- as long as a post is civil and within the bounds of our posting guidelines, it' valid.

Um, BTW- the "mommy" analogy sort of breaks here, considering the fact that none of us (the mods) are female. :p

Yeah... and besides... I'm always looking for a reason to say:

WHO'S YOUR DADDY??? :cool:

[DMR]

Originally posted by Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379
Yeah... and besides... I'm always looking for a reason to say:

WHO'S YOUR DADDY??? :cool: OK Alex, let's not go there...

:eek:

:D

[deanrantala]

lol

[funkytaz10]

First of all I want to thank Deanrantala and sclebo05 again,

to defend the newbies....

for the guru's in this board i found a website where the newbies can learn by doing....
the website title is Learn Linux : explantions are everywhere, learn by doing it here!! (http://www.ctssn.com/)

and which i find a good example on how to teach newbies how to do something....
It made me understand how to use the VI editor...

greetings

funkytaz10

[deanrantala]

Nice site.:)

Another one of my favorites is tldp.org . They got hundreds of Howtos written for the n00bi in mind, and are really nicely laid out IMO.