[Query] Procmail & Linux Project Ideas

[DavidMD]

Hi, everyone.

I am a technical writer who has been "between jobs" for a very long time -- and the situation is not likely to change, although the need for job is immediate -- but this thread is not a biography. :)

I will add that I am focusing more and more of my attention on learning Linux. Obviously, JustLinux is a great resource, and I have been reading my Linux books, as well as various Linux Web sites.

It has been suggested to me that I might want to consider a Procmail (http://www.procmail.org/) project as a learning challenge.

I have one machine, so setting up the more traditional projects for which Procmail is used for a network server are not really an option -- I don't think.

I was, however, thinking of using Procmail to sort my incoming mail into separate folders/files -- at least as a starting project. (I use KMail.) I will have to do much research before I even consider embarking on such a project, but I realize this fact.

I would be grateful for any other Procmail, or other Linux, project suggestions. (I am continuing to research Promail on the Web, incidentally.) I am also interested in PHP and MySQL, and I have been creating Web sites with HTML since 1995 (all for nonprofit organizations, which has been fulfilling, but not enough to make a living, particularly since Web sites in HTML and JavaScript alone are no longer "sufficient").

By the way, a relative has an old 486 that is just collecting dust; I am welcome to this old PC -- if this information helps. (The PC has no NIC, but I could get one. I'd probably need to upgrade the hardware somewhat too, as much as the BIOS and motherboard allow. What I probably need is a more modern PC, such as a Pentium-based one, which I cannot afford right now.)

Thank you very much, in advance!

Cordially,

David
--
http://ddickerson.igc.org/

P.S. -- I believe in Linux's future and am optimistic about where it will be in, say, five years. My technical writing has been for companies that use Windows and Windows-based software and tools, such as FrameMaker and Office.

Getting away from a career (even not doing technical writing) that is dependent on Windows (ugh) appeals to me, although I realize that there are no guarantees and that I need years of learning Linux.

I have so much to learn about Linux that I am intimidated, but I am not turning back. :)

[mdwatts]

Hey David...

I would think Procmail, Apache, MySQL & PHP would be enough to keep you busy for a very long time. The amount of online documentation available for each of them would keep you in reading material for many years.

Start with those and when you feel you have gained enough knowledge for each, then consider moving on to something else.

[Ludootje]

Since you're a webdesigner, maybe PHP & MySQL is more interesting for you to learn then procmail. If you get good at it, it can help you make a living greatly. That way you'd also learn to setup MySQL & Apache (setting those up is easy, setting them up so that they're secure & optimized is much more difficult:)).
procmail is good to know, but it won't help you make money, and for filtering you can simply use built-in filtering from your mailclient.

[DavidMD]

Originally posted by mdwatts
Hey David...

I would think Procmail, Apache, MySQL & PHP would be enough to keep you busy for a very long time. The amount of online documentation available for each of them would keep you in reading material for many years.

Start with those and when you feel you have gained enough knowledge for each, then consider moving on to something else.

Hi, Mike!

Thank you for the advice.

In addition to the wealth of on-line documentation, there are, of coure, books. I have several (i.e. MANY) books on Linux, PHP, MySQL (and books on PHP and MySQL). I have to admit, Mike, that I am addicted to books; they take up most of my living space! :)

I also have books on Perl, Java, and C programming, and I have two books on Apache. (I have had several false starts with Perl, but I was stuck with MacPerl at the time and not "the real thing.")

I do not have any books on Procmail, but there is always on-line documentation, as you say. :)

Finally, Mike, do you think that Procmail should "take a back seat" to the other suggested topics? (KMail's filtering could certainly use the enhancement that Procmail would offer.)

I am not sure how long it would take me to set up Procmail to filter e-mail for KMail; plus, Procmail would be an additional skill for my resume.

I am thinking long term about Linux and associated skills, Mike. In five years, I will still be a Linux newbie, but perhaps I could still make a living in the Linux environment -- eventually and with dedication, effort, and time.

(I have been using the Mac since 1986 and Linux only since November, but since I installed Linux, I've not turned on my G4 Power Mac very often. I can see a direct relationship between my involvement with Linux and my using my Power Mac less frequently!)

Thank you again, Mike! :)

Cordially,

David
--
http://ddickerson.igc.org/

[DavidMD]

Originally posted by Ludootje
Since you're a webdesigner, maybe PHP & MySQL is more interesting for you to learn then procmail. If you get good at it, it can help you make a living greatly. That way you'd also learn to setup MySQL & Apache (setting those up is easy, setting them up so that they're secure & optimized is much more difficult:)).

procmail is good to know, but it won't help you make money, and for filtering you can simply use built-in filtering from your mailclient.

Hello, Ludootje!

Thank you very much for your reply and your suggestions.

Your suggestion about PHP, MySQL, and Apache is most appropriate, given my background with HTML and Web site creation. (What about Perl? Is PHP more in demand these days?)

I can, however, see value in learning Procmail, in case I ever got into system administration with Linux.

The important thing is for me to make a plan and then stick to it. Devoting myself to learning one skill set at a time, as well as continuing to learn Linux in general.

Thanks again, Ludootje!

Cordially,

David
--
http://ddickerson.igc.org/

P.S. -- My very first step should be to find a good PHP editor, Ludootje, but I can do research on Google and then ask for opinions here at JustLinux.

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by DavidMD
Hello, Ludootje!

Thank you very much for your reply and your suggestions.

Your suggestion about PHP, MySQL, and Apache is most appropriate, given my background with HTML and Web site creation. (What about Perl? Is PHP more in demand these days?)

I can, however, see value in learning Procmail, in case I ever got into system administration with Linux.

The important thing is for me to make a plan and then stick to it. Devoting myself to learning one skill set at a time, as well as continuing to learn Linux in general.

Thanks again, Ludootje!

Cordially,

David
--
http://ddickerson.igc.org/

P.S. -- My very first step should be to find a good PHP editor, Ludootje, but I can do research on Google and then ask for opinions here at JustLinux.
You can consider perl as an equivalent of PHP for webservices, except that PHP is faster and easier to learn. Perl however has the advantage that it can also be used for sysadmin stuff. As for the demand, I don't really know but I'd say it's the same. Perl is old and has a good reputation, PHP is new and is getting more and more popular.
As for an editor, I recommend quanta plus (quanta.sf.net) as a GUI editor. It can for example complete classes and does syntax highlighting as well.

If you plan to go into sysadmin stuff, I don't know if procmail is very important. Being able to set up and use mail servers is important for sysadmins, more then procmail I think. You should learn postfix, exim, sendmail and qmail (those are the most used email daemons).

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by DavidMD
P.S. -- My very first step should be to find a good PHP editor, Ludootje, but I can do research on Google and then ask for opinions here at JustLinux.
Just thought of this: when you need software, freshmeat.net is better then google.com or even google.com/linux . Just mentioning this in case you didn't know freshmeat yet.

[DavidMD]

Originally posted by Ludootje
You can consider perl as an equivalent of PHP for webservices, except that PHP is faster and easier to learn. Perl however has the advantage that it can also be used for sysadmin stuff. As for the demand, I don't really know but I'd say it's the same. Perl is old and has a good reputation, PHP is new and is getting more and more popular.
As for an editor, I recommend quanta plus (quanta.sf.net) as a GUI editor. It can for example complete classes and does syntax highlighting as well.

If you plan to go into sysadmin stuff, I don't know if procmail is very important. Being able to set up and use mail servers is important for sysadmins, more then procmail I think. You should learn postfix, exim, sendmail and qmail (those are the most used email daemons).

Hi, Ludootje.

Thank you very much for your message.

My Perl exposure is more extensive than my exposure to PHP, but PHP and MySQL seem to be "all the rage." I am seeing more and more Web sites with pages ending in '.php' than I do with '.pl' files, although I realize that Perl does much more "behind-the-scenes" work. My Perl library is certainly larger than my PHP library, but I do have several books on PHP and MySQL (and both).

Thank you for recommending Quanta Plus, Ludootje. I tried to visit its home page, but it could not be found on SourcForge.net. I did a Google search and got the same URL that you gave me. I wonder if the project is still active? I will continue my search. :confused:

Thank you also for the recommendations regarding system administration skills, Ludootje.

Cordially,

David
--
http://ddickerson.igc.org/

[Ludootje]

the reason PHP is getting more and more popular is mostly because it's a lot easier to write, but also to maintain / modify. There's python as well, but it's not very popular for web stuff. I wouldn't recommend it, simply because since it's less popular then PHP (for web stuff at least, python is very popular for 'normal' apps) you won't find a lot of hosting companies which also offer Python.

If you have a few books about PHP & MySQL, that should be enough (at least if they are good books:)). You don't tons of them to understand it imo.

I checked quanta.sf.net, you are correct. I don't know why it's not working, since I'm pretty sure the project is still active. I didn't check the URL still worked when I posted it here, sorry.
You can download it at http://sourceforge.net/projects/quanta
SourceForge.net is a huge repository of (mostly) GNU/Linux software. The projects there have their homepage at project-name.sourceforge.net, but other things like a forum, mailing lists, cvs information and a file list is available at sourceforge.net/projects/project-name.
freshmeat.net & apps.kde.com still list quanta.sf.net as its homepage, so I suppose it's temporary. Anyway you can still download it :)

[DavidMD]

Originally posted by Ludootje
Just thought of this: when you need software, freshmeat.net is better then google.com or even google.com/linux . Just mentioning this in case you didn't know freshmeat yet.

Hi, Ludootje.

Thanks for the recommendation.

I am familiar with Freshmeat.net, although I just recently started using it. (I had mainly been using Google and SourceForge.net, but Mike suggested Freshmeat.net as an alternative, particularly to SourceForge.net.)

As usual, Mike was right! :) ...And so are you! ;)

Again, Ludootje, thank you!

Cordially,

David
--
http://ddickerson.igc.org/

[DavidMD]

Hi, Ludootje! :)

Thank you for your time, and the comparison of the languages. Perl source code is, of course, notoriously hard to read. (I am sure you know about the annual Obfuscated Perl Contest.) ;)

Python is gaining more and more popularity, but you are correct about it not being appropriate for Web development. (Ruby is becoming increasingly popular, too, although I do not know anyone personally who uses it.)

I will go with your recommendation and pursue PHP and MySQL. I was a quarter of the way through a PHP book, highly rated on Amazon.com, this spring, when I got frustrated with it and decided to use another one of my books. The book I had been using simply had too many source code and writing errors. (As an unemployed technical writer, I found the editorial mistakes very hard to tolerate.)

After I posted my reply last night about the Quanta Plus URL being "dead," Ludootje, I did a Google/Linux search and found it at <http://apps.kde.com/>. There is even a source RPM for my distribution, SuSE Linux 8.2 (Professional). One simply has to become a member of APPS.KDE.COM to download files, which I was not able to do, because I kept getting an error with the registration wizard and could not progess -- an error that I did repot to the webmaster.

Thank you for suggesting <http://sourceforge.net/projects/quanta>, Ludootje. If I cannot get Quanta Plus from APPS.KDE.COM, I will try the SourceForge.net URL.

Again, Ludootje, thank you very much for your time, patience, and help! :) (I look forward to trying Quanta Plus.)

Cordially,

David
--
http://ddickerson.igc.org/

Originally posted by Ludootje
the reason PHP is getting more and more popular is mostly because it's a lot easier to write, but also to maintain / modify. There's python as well, but it's not very popular for web stuff. I wouldn't recommend it, simply because since it's less popular then PHP (for web stuff at least, python is very popular for 'normal' apps) you won't find a lot of hosting companies which also offer Python.

If you have a few books about PHP & MySQL, that should be enough (at least if they are good books:)). You don't tons of them to understand it imo.

I checked quanta.sf.net, you are correct. I don't know why it's not working, since I'm pretty sure the project is still active. I didn't check the URL still worked when I posted it here, sorry.
You can download it at http://sourceforge.net/projects/quanta
SourceForge.net is a huge repository of (mostly) GNU/Linux software. The projects there have their homepage at project-name.sourceforge.net, but other things like a forum, mailing lists, cvs information and a file list is available at sourceforge.net/projects/project-name.
freshmeat.net & apps.kde.com still list quanta.sf.net as its homepage, so I suppose it's temporary. Anyway you can still download it :)

[Ludootje]

To learn PHP, the official PHP manual from http://www.php.net/docs.php is very popular (at least that's what almost everyone recommended me when I started with it). Maybe you can get a printed version somewhere
In general, when you're looking for a technical book, the books from O'Reilly (oreilly.com) are extremely good, and their books cover many aspects of IT. They have many about PHP & MySQL as well.
Good luck!

[DavidMD]

Originally posted by Ludootje
To learn PHP, the official PHP manual from http://www.php.net/docs.php is very popular (at least that's what almost everyone recommended me when I started with it). Maybe you can get a printed version somewhere
In general, when you're looking for a technical book, the books from O'Reilly (oreilly.com) are extremely good, and their books cover many aspects of IT. They have many about PHP & MySQL as well.
Good luck!

Hi, Ludootje!

Thank you for your message.

I have been reading the manual at the official PHP Web site. In fact, I actually do have the two-volume printed version, but it's, of course, not for the most recent versions of PHP.

I also have the O'Reilly books on PHP and MySQL (every title, I think). I have been a big fan of O'Reilly since early 1992 when I was given their UNIX command reference book, their UUCP book, and Learning Vi. (I even exchanged a couple of e-mail messages with Tim O'Reilly.) :)

Many of O'Reilly's books are definitely not for beginners, whereas others are accessible to readers at all levels. (The debate about how useful Learning Perl is to beginners seems unlikely to end, although most people do not like the O'Reilly book on learning Perl on a 32-bit Windows platform.)

Anyway, Ludootje, I very much appreciate your advice and suggestions!

Cordially,

David
--
http://ddickerson.igc.org/

P.S. -- By the way, Ludootje, how long have you been involved with PHP and MySQL? I assume that you taught yourself.

After you started to learn PHP and MySWL, how long did it take you to start generating "useful" code, such as creating PHP-based Web pages or using PHP to interact with a MySQL database?

Finally, did you learn PHP and MySQL concurrently or did you learn, for instance, PHP first? (I apologize for all of my questions, in advance.) Thank you, Ludootje!

[Ludootje]

Originally posted by DavidMD
I also have the O'Reilly books on PHP and MySQL (every title, I think). I have been a big fan of O'Reilly since early 1992 when I was given their UNIX command reference book, their UUCP book, and Learning Vi. (I even exchanged a couple of e-mail messages with Tim O'Reilly.) :)

Many of O'Reilly's books are definitely not for beginners, whereas others are accessible to readers at all levels. (The debate about how useful Learning Perl is to beginners seems unlikely to end, although most people do not like the O'Reilly book on learning Perl on a 32-bit Windows platform.)
all O'Reilly books about PHP & MySQL, and you say you have more of perl... your Perl library must be really *huge* man :)
Most aren't for beginners no, but those which are meant for them clearly say so. I think that while they have many books on tons of subjects, they (generally) have only one per subject which is for beginners. I could be wrong with this generalisation though :) I thought Learning Perl was one of those, it's the first time I hear it's bad for beginners. What's wrong with it? Not detailed enough? (I never read it, but if I wanted to learn Perl, I'd probably buy that one)

P.S. -- By the way, Ludootje, how long have you been involved with PHP and MySQL? I assume that you taught yourself.

After you started to learn PHP and MySWL, how long did it take you to start generating "useful" code, such as creating PHP-based Web pages or using PHP to interact with a MySQL database?

Finally, did you learn PHP and MySQL concurrently or did you learn, for instance, PHP first? (I apologize for all of my questions, in advance.) Thank you, Ludootje!
Yes I teached it to myself. I think that was about a year ago. It's been a very long time (+/-1/3 of a year) ago that I last did some web stuff, so I probably wouldn't be very good at it right now :)

I didn't read the entire 'official PHP manual' (the Dutch translation was very bad, and the English one was too hard for me:() so I read other tutorials, which almost immediately started with serious code. Those were task-oriented tutorials, so not to learn PHP entirely but to be able to do certain things with it. At the time I was mostly interested in storing data in a MySQL db and retrieving it, so I read some specific tutorials which explained that. Because those howtos were very specific, it took me only a few hours to be able to write useful code. I must say that while this definitely isn't the right way to learn a language, it's much more satisfying then learning it "the normal way" since then it would take much more time to be productive with the language;

I learned both at the same time, at least if you mean using MySQL through PHP. I still don't know SQL, and to manage MySQL db's I use phpmyadmin.

[DavidMD]

Hi, Ludootje!

Thank you for your message.

Regarding Learning Perl, I found it difficult only because I was using a Mac at the time and would have had to telnet to a UNIX system in San Francisco to learn Perl under UNIX. (Linux was just a kernel at the time.) For someone with access to Linux, and experience with it, I think that the book is a fine introduction. The second edition is better than the first edition.

I do have a huge Perl library of O'Reilly books. I think that I have them all. I got really enthusiastic about Perl and got carried away. (I also have some good books on Perl by other publishers, including one that uses Perl as an introduction to programming for people with no experience with any language, an idea that runs counter to traditional thinking.)

Thank you for telling me how your learned PHP and MySQL, Ludootje. It sounds like to learned them rapidly. I do think that it makes sense to learn the two together, but I might find the task daunting and just try learning PHP first. (New Riders has a great book on MySQL by DuBois; the second edition has been out for a while.)

Once I find a job, I think I will be less plagued by financial anxiety and more able to focus on learning PHP and MySQL. At this point, I spend most of my time searching for work, which is frustrating and exhausting.

Ludootje, thank you very much for your messages! :)

Cordially,

David
--
http://ddickerson.igc.org/

P.S. -- I learned the little JavaScript that I know by searching for code to solve specific needs (to have Web pages do things that I wanted). I've not touched JavaScript in over two years, however, and I would basically have to start from scratch.