Official multi OS disscusion thread

[deanrantala]

Here it is, the official "multi culture OS discussion" thread.

Now Before we get started, I really don't want to see this turn into a rant, so....

1)This is not a anti-M$ thread. Please take it to the Microsoft ranting thread(s)

2)This is not a anti-windows, anti-apple, or anti-SCO thread. Please keep those to to their respective threads.

I am starting this thread because it is always interesting to see what others know about different OS's and to put in prospective the technological advantages/disadvantages of all the many different OS's out there. It is also interesting when someone mentions an OS that I (or someone else) has never even heard of.

And like I said, discussing of the disadvantages and/or disadvantages of a particular OS is fine, but lets not start rant rage 2003.

Well?

[cjanscen]

person1: opinion1

person2: opinion2

person1: opinion1

person2: opinion2

valuable information

person1: opinion1

person2: opinion2

etc...

So to start out, I would like to say that I think micro-kernels are the way of the future, so check out OS's like QNX and the HURD

[deanrantala]

Probably will get alot of opinions, but it is interesting to see how others view other OS's

To be honest, I've heard of a "micro kernel" a couple times, but have no idea as for what it is. I'm gonna go check it out with (heres to you "MR. Google") a google search before I qoute on that.:)

I do know that when I was looking for a linux distro for an old Mac performa, I had only one choice because it was the only distro that supported the apple nubus. I can't remember the name of the distro, but it was based on a micro kernel.

[hard candy]

A question, what does the term "OS' refer to? Are we talking about different flavors/distros of linux? Or is this to discuss using WinXP, unix, OS X, etc? Or all of the above?

[deanrantala]

All of the above.

Kernels, Whole systems (with a desktop), embedded systems, The big, The small, the pretty, and the ugly.

NT kernels, Linux kernels, BSD kernels, DOS kernels, (micro kernels:) ), Pre-OSX kernels, Unix kernels. Popcorn kernels (if your hungry)

SCO Linux - my personal favorite, Debian, Windows x.x, 95, 98, ME, NT, 2000, XP, Longhorn, Slackware, *BSD, OSx - OSX, Mandy, RH, Gentoo, Peanut, Knoppix, BeOS, Solaris, HP-UX, VMS, ELX, DOS, CP/M, Yellow dog, conectiva, yoper, Lycoris, College Linux, Turbo, Trustix,OS/2, SuSE, and any other I can't rattle of the top of my head right now.

I am always trying out different OS's on spare PC's - on a weekly basis. Two that I have been trying to try are Solaris and OS/2, but I don't want to pay for a copy that I am only trying for a week. If I like it, I purchase the "box" as I have with Slack, Mandy, RH, SuSE, and countless copies of Windows.

Last night, I finally tried FreeBSD. I gave up after 2 hours of step-by-step prompting. It really is not hard to set up, t just takes some patience and a good cup of coffee. I got tired of all the prompts and just tirned the PC off. What amazed me about BSD: when I hit the power button, it did not shut down. Instead I was asked it I wanted to abort installation! Wow, thats a first. I still have not figured out how you set up the PC to shut down when I hit the button (like XP) with linux. BSD wasn't even completely installed yet, and it acknowledged the ACPI features and knew what to do.

[chris_i386]

My impression of the GNU/Hurd project (from looking at their web site):
They didn't come up with anything widely usable for the last 15 years, and they probably won't come up with something in the near future either :-(

[deanrantala]

From what I read, it seems more suited for embeded systems. Something like WinCE and XP embeded w/o the GUI? Not to say it is not capable of desktop use, but it seems like a stripped down ultra portable linux kernel.

WinCE and XP embeded is like that. A stripped down NT kernel that can be used on almost anything. Heres a link http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/techinsights/optimize/default.asp that has all the info. To be honest, NT is a pretty tough kernel. About on the same level as the linux kernel IMHO. It is just the rest of the OS that I don't really like. Technologically speaking, however, the kernel itself is not that bad.

Lycoris, however, is another story. Excelent [2.4] kernel, poor desktop. And I don't mean KDE, it just does not tick right. For some reason, the whole OS is S L O W. Even on faster machines. I think it is just poor design in the entire distro or something. It IS user freindly though. Real freindly.

One thing I would LOVE to see: The OSX Aqua Desktop ported for linux. I don't know about you, but I would gladly pay for it if Apple ported it to the PC. The aqua desktop with a linux kernel would make one mean OS for the PC I think.

[hard candy]

It's being worked on:
aquafusion (http://www.kde-look.org/usermanager/search.php?username=AquaFusion)

[deanrantala]

Hmm.... Nice, but not quite what I'm looking for. I have already tried the aqua themes and icons for KDE. Its the whole desktop I want. The awsome icon zooming, the configuration panels, and the works. Theres just something about it that is really "cool"

I'll be happy with GNOME and KDE for now:)

And whats the deal with BeOS? The kernel that BeOS uses is in one word : FAST. I mean, from power on to a fully loaded desktop is 7 seconds on a PII 400 with 128 megs ram. I'd like to look into how it pulls it off. Funny thing is, it is not by any means a stripped down OS. Maybe a stripped down Desktop, but still. And heres a real trick : it is machine independant. I took the hard drive out of the P550 that I initially loaded it on, put it in a celeron 450, turned the system on, and 7 seconds later, it is running again. I needed a driver for the network, buut that was it. No tedious "winows has found new hardware" dialogs, "kernel panics", or other problems.

Another one that intrests me it WinCE and Palm OS. Perhaps the fact that it runs from RAM is the key factor. 1 Second. Thats it. Pretty neat.

[sarah31]

i like OS X alot and linux too.

if you want aqua on linux better be ready to wait a VERY long time cuz it ain't gonna happen.

[El_Cu_Guy]

I'm not even gonna touch the micro/macro/monolithic kernel rant. They all have strengths and weaknesses. None of them can claim perfection in all situations.

From what I read, it seems more suited for embeded systems. Something like WinCE and XP embeded w/o the GUI? Not to say it is not capable of desktop use, but it seems like a stripped down ultra portable linux kernel.

The GNU Hurd is the GNU project's replacement for the Unix kernel. The Hurd is a collection of servers that run on the Mach microkernel to implement file systems, network protocols, file access control, and other features that are implemented by the Unix kernel or similar kernels (such as Linux).

Yep, perfect for embedded systems :rolleyes:

WinCE and XP embeded is like that. A stripped down NT kernel that can be used on almost anything.

Sorry, but they're not stripped down kernels. The other stuff (Media Player, Messenger, etc) is modular.

[deanrantala]

Sorry, but they're not stripped down kernels. The other stuff (Media Player, Messenger, etc) is modular.


Go to the microsoft embeded website and do some research. Also, you should check out the descriptions they give in their formal press releases and white papers. Go to http://www.microsoft.com/windows/Embedded/faq/default.asp and read the FAQ of XP embeded and CE .net embeded. A freind of mine is involved with the MS embeded project. He is designing an mp3 player for automobiles. When he purchased the embeded toolkit, he got a basic kernel, the sources and other stuff to modify the kernel to his liking as well as a load of other bootstrapping, compiling, debugging, and other such sofware. The kernel itself "out of the box" does NOT have PNP support, FPU, IDE, AGP, USB, and ACPI support like the NT 5.x (2000 and XP) does. With NT 5.x there are a wealth of support features biult directly into the kernel - unlike pre-NT 4.x and DOS. So by all proper definitions, it is somewhat "stpipped down"

FYI: NT 5.x includes SCSI, ATAPI CD-ROM, TCP/IP, anf a wealth of other features directly biult into the kernel. A big difference from The DOS kernel. Are you gonna say that the windows CE in all the palmtops of the world already have SCSI and ATAPI support?

EDIT:
The Website I read said that support for character devices was still nearly completely sparse (sound cards, mice?) So that gave me the impression that it was geared more towards embeded and mission-specific projects at the moment. Nonethe less, (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't the site say that their is a version for debian or something? So obviously it is very capable of desktop use. But like I said earlier, it looks (from how it is explained) as if it is still in developement and MOSTLY used for task-specific and embeded stuff.

[El_Cu_Guy]

First off let's look at the embedded deal here. Sounds like your friend purchased CE not XP. XP has been criticized for it's bloat, unnecessary garbage, and the inability to buy what you need.

Microsoft has recently made changes to CE licensing which allow for a much wider range of customization and for third parties to actually increase profits.

Nonethe less, (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't the site say that their is a version for debian or something? So obviously it is very capable of desktop use. But like I said earlier, it looks (from how it is explained) as if it is still in developement and MOSTLY used for task-specific and embeded stuff.

Debian is the organisation which is heavily involved in the development of GNU/Hurd.

Debian != desktop

[deanrantala]

Just to make sure I am being clear: I am not talking about XP. I'm talking about "XP Embeded"

XP embeded is a SPECIAL version of XP that has a minimalist kernel based on the full-version XP. I'm not talking about just plain old XP. And my buddy is not using CE .net, he is using XP embeded. The cost was some 1500 dollars, but he says it will be worth it:rolleyes:

Personally, I'd save a buck in this instance and go with GPL.:rolleyes:

While were on the embeded subject, is palm OS its own entity - or is it based around something else? I do know that the individuals who created palm, sold out and now have another company.(is it Visor?)

[JusKickNit]

Why were talk'n about HURD I'm curious about Debian/Hurd it's 4 cd's. Does come with X and any wm's. I havn't found much info on it anywhere(a little here and there).

[o0zi]

deanrantala, for the zooming icons (a la Mac OS X Aqua) on KDE, look at Karamba, an addon for the KDE panel. With the Aqua themes and icons and all the other modifications, I think you could get a pretty good imitation of OS X Aqua.

[El_Cu_Guy]

Just to make sure I am being clear: I am not talking about XP. I'm talking about "XP Embeded"

Perhaps I should have used XPE rather than simply CE (for CE.Net) and XP (for XP embedded). As the discussion revolved around embedded OSes I made the assumption that this was friggin obvious.

The cost was some 1500 dollars, but he says it will be worth it

Microsoft's suggested retail price for the XPE toolkit (with all the bells and whistles) is much less.

My final thought for this thread is that it's a complete garbage dump of random rants or at least will be. The title makes it seem more like it's own forum rather than an individual thread. It has the potential to be more random than any other dev/random thread to date.