crippled gentoo install routine. [Archive]

deanrantala

08-17-2003, 11:56 AM

Whats the deal with gentoo? I hear everyone talk so good about it. Heres what I have found trying to install gentoo.

The site says that the stage tarballs are located /mnt/cdrom/stages. That is incorrect, they are in /mnt/cdrom/gentoo. The gentoo install site also says that you can download the proper tarballs online, but the url is a dead link.

And half the commands that they tell you to issue are useless.

#mirrorselect
bash: mirrorselect:command not found
#env-update
bash: env-update:command not found
And so on....

They really need to get their stuff together. A checksum on the disk shows that everythings fine - so its not the disk. The entire linux community is evolving while gentoo is going backwards.

To all the gentoo developers out there: Portage sounds very nice, but you need to focus on bringing it to the average desktop user. Work on the install routine, and you need to work on correct on-line documentation.

mart_man00

08-17-2003, 01:16 PM

You can find the tar balls on teh disc. They are there.

You have to emerge mirrorselect first, it was never included. And you run 'mirrorselect -a'.

Like i PMed you, Gentoo is turning into ____ ____. I was really starting to liek that distro and there nothing to switch over too.

The ebuilds are fine, id wish the devs that give a dam would just fork already, the last one didnt seem to do anything.

stumbles

08-17-2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by mart_man00
You can find the tar balls on teh disc. They are there.

You have to emerge mirrorselect first, it was never included. And you run 'mirrorselect -a'.

Like i PMed you, Gentoo is turning into bull ****. I was really starting to liek that distro and there nothing to switch over too.

The ebuilds are fine, id wish the devs that give a dam would just fork already, the last one didnt seem to do anything.

Gentoo must have changed a lot since I last used it. What sort of bull poop?

Got tired of the compile times involved with the source based distros. It wouldn't be so bad but doing it on a P600, well I just don't have the patience anymore.

deanrantala

08-17-2003, 01:31 PM

Yeah, i think your right about the mirrorselect - but that just shows one more peice of mis-information on their how-to.

And I did find the tarballs on the disk, but they are at /mnt/cdrom/gentoo - not exectly where they should be. How does that fair to a total newbie who wants to give gentoo a try and does not know that much about the cli?

I really wanted to get it running - if anthing just for the portage. But, I need to know how to "properly" install gentoo step-by-step and the "official" website is not very accurate...

je_fro

08-17-2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by deanrantala
The entire linux community is evolving while gentoo is going backwards. To all the gentoo developers out there: Portage sounds very nice, but you need to focus on bringing it to the average desktop user. Work on the install routine, and you need to work on correct on-line documentation.

Dude, with all due respect, you're completely lost. Gentoo never has been, or even tries to be for the average user. That's what redhat's for. As for the documentation, I think it's about the best there is...aside from the *bsd's. I've installed Gentoo a LOT, and I've found it to be buggy and irritating, but I think you just didn't read carefully enough.

mart_man00

08-17-2003, 01:38 PM

They dont care, this bugs me more than anythign else.

I told them what happens and they dont care. I was told that I should be using the sources in the first place. Why did they make binary ebuilds then? Why do they call themselves devs?

Then when i mention the install guide and how it just doesnt work and implied how its there responsibility i got back 'dont be a ***'.

Sure there is alot of nice gentoo users, but im starting to wonder about their devs.

Sorry for the rant, but ive gotten nothing back.

Hayl

08-17-2003, 01:40 PM

rather than ranting here, why don't you use the gentoo bugzilla and log any errors in their documentation as bugs. if no one logs it, then it won't get fixed.

also, i don't konw what devs you are talking about but if you mean the ones on the #gentoo irc channel, that is just a few people, not the entire team.

deanrantala

08-17-2003, 01:50 PM

Good point. I'll head on over to gentoo and complain:)

Then again, I can't complain about something that was free:D

I got an even better solution: To linuxiso.org I go!

________________

goodbye portage... err...I mean horses, I'm flying over you.

mart_man00

08-17-2003, 01:58 PM

also, i don't konw what devs you are talking about but if you mean the ones on the #gentoo irc channel, that is just a few people, not the entire team.
Yeah, few checked out the posts like i think they should. Bugs were filled. Nothing.

Good point. I'll head on over to gentoo and complain
My new strategy, getthem to fix it or piss them all off like they did to alot of people.

I got an even better solution: To linuxiso.org I go!
Good luck and tell me if you find a new good one, i could use it.

stumbles

08-17-2003, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by deanrantala
Good point. I'll head on over to gentoo and complain:)

Then again, I can't complain about something that was free:D

I got an even better solution: To linuxiso.org I go!

________________

goodbye portage... err...I mean horses, I'm flying over you.

www.lunar-linux.org is another source based distro. Between it and Gentoo, I ran Lunar longer. Again, I got tired of the compile times and now use Mandrake.

I found Lunar a bit easier to deal with than Gentoo.

sarah31

08-17-2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by je_fro
Dude, with all due respect, you're completely lost. Gentoo never has been, or even tries to be for the average user. That's what redhat's for. As for the documentation, I think it's about the best there is...aside from the *bsd's. I've installed Gentoo a LOT, and I've found it to be buggy and irritating, but I think you just didn't read carefully enough.

i dunno about that claim je_fro. while they may not exactly claim so in their online documentation they have made several moves that make it look as though they are focusing on every style of user.

arch linux is the same way. we do not aim our distro to a newbie but newbies will use it and we have had and continue to have to make some changes, additions and deletions to documentation as we go along. even then our documantation does not make it necessarily easy for a newbie to install and use arch linux. our documents are short and concise and will imply at least some experience with linux at the cli. after all there is help on the forum and irc channel to clear up any issue promptly. the head dev of arch linux continues to keep true to his stated goals. gentoo, on the other hand, doesn't always seem to do this.

this does not make them evil or anything ..... perhaps all they need to do is reassess their goals. they have gotten big and popular very fast so it is not a surprise to me that some things appear to be "falling apart". any distro can or will go through this.

deanrantala

08-17-2003, 03:14 PM

Not to start flame fest 2003, but the online documentation is NOT up to date and is NOT acurate. Furthermore, as sarah31 said, they do try to advertise it as the "ideal distro for everyone" as most distros do. A full slack install is 100x easier for a newbie IMO than gentoo. And the speed at wich slack runs compared to gentoo is practically the same. And I have not heard the best things about their dedicated support forums and IRC's either.

mart_man00

08-17-2003, 03:46 PM

Basicly, if you release software like a distro you have the responsibilty for maintaning it helping, within reason.

If its not design for a n00b, your a *** hole. No nice way to put it. Going out of your way to make it harder than it has to be is ____ ____.

Install wise gentoo isnt tha bad, but it isnt good either.

With the GRP discs, they should either fix it or give up the distro. Its pointless to do this stuff if your not going to try.

Its just another example of unix ________ setting back everything.

nextbillgates

08-17-2003, 03:54 PM

The online installation documentation is always up to date, and as a result, may not transfer over completely to older versions.

If you want to follow the instructions exactly, download and burn the latest ISO, or read install.txt (should be at the root of the fs).

Hayl

08-17-2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by deanrantala
Good point. I'll head on over to gentoo and complain:)

don't complain, be constructive and log it as a bug.

Then again, I can't complain about something that was free:D

if you want to give back to the OpenSource Community, it is your responsibility to report any bugs you find.

just so you know, i agree that the new "GRP" instructions are not good and may not work (i have not tried them) however if you install it the normal way - all from source, the instructions are correct.

i especially disagree with their genkernel program. one person who posted on JL used genkernel and it put in RAID support on a box with no RAID.

sarah31

08-17-2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Hayl

if you want to give back to the OpenSource Community, it is your responsibility to report any bugs you find.

ok ..... here it goes....your sig is far too cluttered. it take up too much space and is redundant in many aspects :p :p

deanrantala

08-17-2003, 07:42 PM

Actually, I'm gonna report it the "good boy" way. Just so no one can say I did not do anything constructive for the open source community.:)

But it seems (and I belive many will agree) that gentoo has recieved many posts and requests on this matter already. You can't help someone who do not want to help themselves:(

And for the record: I used the absolutely most recent and updated (1.4 rc4) install ISO. So theres no problem there. Granted I do not know much about "chroot" and all that, but I have become very competant with linux and for someone who has almost fully tackled slackware to be having problems with an install shows either this distro is *not* for joe average, or it just has problems. Since I will admit there are lots of happy people with top notch gentoo systems up and running, I will lean towards the first - add to that that there are inconsistancies with their software and the documentation.

But enough with the ranting... I'm gonna head on over there later on and play fair. If I AM ignored, them it will only show who cares about the opensource community. Otherwise, I wish the best of luck to the gentoo developement team:) , and look forward to trying a working product out sometime.

nextbillgates

08-17-2003, 09:18 PM

And for the record: I used the absolutely most recent and updated (1.4 rc4) install ISO. So theres no problem there.

Which would be your problem. Gentoo 1.4 RC4 is an older version. Gentoo 1.4 Final was released 2-3 weeks ago.

:)

JusKickNit

08-17-2003, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by nextbillgates
Which would be your problem. Gentoo 1.4 RC4 is an older version. Gentoo 1.4 Final was released 2-3 weeks ago.

:)

That's the problem! August 5 Gentoo released 1.4. Mirrorselect works fine for me. And The stages are in /mnt/cdrom/stages on the new cd. On the older ones they were in /mnt/cdrom/gentoo.

deanrantala

08-17-2003, 09:41 PM

I feel like a total ***. But when I selected current download, that IS what I got. Well, lary, here we go again.

JusKickNit

08-17-2003, 10:08 PM

Yea on the FTP mirrors it's it's under x86. Also if plan on using GRP kde and Xfree is about the only thing that works. Gnome won't install and mozilla and OOo will with some trouble.

hard candy

08-17-2003, 10:46 PM

Hopefully they will separate the two install instructions- I just installed the new grp with no network connection. The instructions were confusing since some sections dealt with the network install and some dealt with the grp install and most sections dealt with both types of install. I had to re-read everything 2-3 times to make sure I was in the right section for a grp install. I look at it as growing pains.
But what is a real drag for someone without a network connection is that KDE will not install without downloading the java docs from java.sun.com. Luckily I have one to use if I need it. I prefer the old install method.
I'm entering a report to gentoo about this and some other issues. It still works though-I can use the command line.

JusKickNit

08-18-2003, 01:17 AM

That's strange? I didn't need to D/L anything(As far as KDE goes, but Gnome is a diffrent story) But, this is the first official releases of GRP or so I was told on the Gentoo forums. So It's going to have some bug's to work out. Let me say also that I used a athlon-xp cd. So thing's might be different on the other CD's.

MartinB

08-18-2003, 10:44 AM

I've been using Gentoo for about half a year now, and am seriously happy with it! :)

I have also just installed it on my new laptop a few days ago, and had no problems apart from a minor issue with the partition table. I did use 1.4-rc2 though, as I couldn't be bothered to download a newer one, so that might be why I had no problems with the documentation.

Just wondering; is there much point in downloading a newer version of Gentoo? I started from stage 1, so everything on my machine should have been downloaded from the Internet in their latest versions anyway, so I can't imagine how a newer version of the install disc would make any difference?

Dracnor

08-18-2003, 11:07 AM

You're right. Installing from stage 1 will make your system completely up-to-date regardless of what release you install off of. I've even installed off of RedHat and Knoppix before, and had a completely up to date Gentoo system when I was done. Emerge sync will ensure that your system knows about the latest versions of software.

The documentation, I think, is very good. But the Gentoo forums are better. That is where I can find answers to a lot of my questions (justlinux.com too ;) ) Also, I recommend having a fairly fast computer or multiple computers using distcc because it does take a while to compile a lot of the stuff.

mart_man00

08-18-2003, 12:57 PM

The documentation, I think, is very good. But the Gentoo forums are better.
Nice try:p I know better than that now.

With the new cd it still tries to download, it starts with orbitz2. I put it on my usb pendrive and gave it to my laptop(where i was installing), it just tried to download the next ebuild.

Its just a few ebuilds are to new.

No fixes, no warning, lots of crap.

hard candy

08-18-2003, 01:42 PM

that's why they need separate instructions and maybe a separate .iso, I did an install on a laptop without network access. I finally got it to boot and the second .iso cd has xfree, kde, and gentoo already to install- there's a step to make portage look at the cd insteat of the network- I think it's USE="bindist" emerge -k kde.
The question is "Why install Gentoo if I'm just installing binary packages? Why not Redhat, Suse, or Mandrake? They're easier. " The only thing that compiles with a stage3 grp install is the kernel.

mart_man00

08-18-2003, 01:47 PM

The install guide has us copy everything to our hard drives, id like to just get portage to see the cd.

"Why install Gentoo if I'm just installing binary packages? Why not Redhat, Suse, or Mandrake? They're easier. "
Hmmm...i hate that i got a pm about some 'language problems'(:p give me a better word then! :p ), id love to use some now....

Redhat is bloat. They stuff it full of everything. Its old. I dont have to give you a reason to begin with.

Do the job right or dont do it at all.

No one will recompile every program every time. Once per version-arch should be enough(unless different useflags). Otherwise its just for some home user jerks.

hard candy

08-18-2003, 02:51 PM

Redhat is bloat. They stuff it full of everything. Its old

So if I copy everything from the Gentoo iso2 disk to my hard drive and install one-size-fits-all binary packages that's not "bloat"?
Redhat9 had up to date programs when I installed it- and especially after apt-get is finished it's up to date.
I have Gentoo installed on my main computer-it was a stage1 install. My point is that I would tell someone who needed a "non-network access" installation to get RH9, Suse, or Mandrake. As far as I can tell on my Celeron Toshiba laptop, Gentoo isn't faster than Redhat9 (at least it doesn't seem that way. If Gentoo is faster, you'll have to make up a lot of time that you've spent trying to get Gentoo working. You could have been using RH9, Mandrake, or Suse by now.

deanrantala

08-18-2003, 04:01 PM

I think the real difference in speed between distros lies between red hat-based distros, and slack-based distros. The other factor that makes a big noticeable difference is a new kernel. Other than that, I see no difference between a debian-based system or RH system.

I did, however, finish a BeOS install on an old PII and the thing boots in less than 7 seconds - into a fully functional desktop with every general purpose app you need. Now thats a difference.

mart_man00

08-18-2003, 04:01 PM

So if I copy everything from the Gentoo iso2 disk to my hard drive and install one-size-fits-all binary packages that's not "bloat"?
Its bloat i asked for.

Plus theres still a zillion things on startup. Theres less on my Gentoo box and the software is practicly the same(software that i asked for like KDE).

Plus i really do like portage, portage on Redhat might be nice. But then i would have to uninstall the system stuff so portage can upgrade it, seem like it would be tricky and more trouble then its worth(fixing gentoo vs turning redhat into gentoo).

JusKickNit

08-18-2003, 10:15 PM

If you're serious about puting portage on RedHat give Yoper a look they've ported portage over to it. I personally havn't tried it, but I seen they had a new release last week with portage.

Hayl

08-18-2003, 10:24 PM

regarding the 2 people discussing using different versions of the install CD. that is the only part of Gentoo as a whole with a version - the install CD. Gentoo its self has no version (except versions of individual software packages). emerge sync && emerge -pu world keeps you at the latest regardless of what version of teh install CD you used.