Who makes these viruses?

[hard candy]

I was reading the other thread and this article about computer viruses:Computer Viruses by Eugene Kaspersky (http://www.viruslist.com/eng/viruslistbooks.html?id=3) (the translation to English is a little rough in places).

Who makes these things? I always got the impression it was someone about 14 years old, not many friends, angry at the world, trying to show off. But the newer viruses seem pretty technically advanced. Do you think it could be Linux programmers trying to undermine Microsoft? Employees of Symantec, McAffee, etc drumming up business? Anti-computer, "the world is flat" folks?
Has anyone ever made a virus? Or know someone who does? Does it give a thrill when a virus shuts down 911 or hospital computers?
I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the motivation.
And from the article, I was impressed that the systems like Netware had no viruses, Linux had very few viruses, Macs had very few viruses. I still don't understand why pure DOS was so vulnerable compared to those.
What do you think the threat level to Linux will be as it gains popularity?

[Hayl]

most of them are not too difficult to code, especially the vb-script based ones that use outlook and ms office vulnerabilities.

if you have ever done any Outlook/MS Exchange Server forms programming (which i used to do a lot of) then you already know how to write them.

personally, i think its mainly script-kiddie types that are a little more advanced in their knowledge that do most of them.

the threat level to linux will always remain low due to the linux security model.

[spagnitz]

Every day billions of data packets get lost or corrupted, the chances are that sooner or later some code or data somewhere will get corrupted in such a way that instead of being bad, it is just slightly diffferent, eventually one of these little fragments of code may be corrupted in such a way that it is able to make copies of itself.

When this piece of code starts to make copies of itself, it will also be subject to damage and corruption. Eventually one of these may be altered in such a way that allows it to copy itself better, as there is only a limited amount of storage space the code fragments will have to compete, they will be tested for fitness. Only the strong will survive...

[o0zi]

You don't even have to code viruses yourself - there are virus creator programs where whoever's creating one just selects the attributes they want.

A lot of people probably get a thrill just out of getting into other people's systems.

[Zaren]

I've known people who have written nasty little programs just to see what they could do. The most I ever did was make a little q&d mail bomber to play a prank on a coworker. Of course, none of this stuff ever got released into the wild.

I figure there are many different desires that drive virus programmers. Some probably have a fanatic/religious/political/patriotic reason, some may be doing it to achieve status among their group of peers, others may be doing it just to break things, and then it could be that someone like me was writing a little program just to see if he could, and it escaped.

Which brings up a question, if you accidentally released a virus into the wild, would you own up to it, and face being sued into oblivion?

I dunno man... I like to have stuff... and like, food.

[twilli227]

quote:
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Every day billions of data packets get lost or corrupted, the chances are that sooner or later some code or data somewhere will get corrupted in such a way that instead of being bad, it is just slightly diffferent, eventually one of these little fragments of code may be corrupted in such a way that it is able to make copies of itself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have never heard of of a virus that produces itself. Am I reading this wrong?

[andysimmons]

Originally posted by spagnitz
Eventually one of these may be altered in such a way that allows it to copy itself better, as there is only a limited amount of storage space the code fragments will have to compete, they will be tested for fitness. Only the strong will survive... You know the Matrix wasn't meant to be a documentary, right?

[Devsforev]

Originally posted by spagnitz
Every day billions of data packets get lost or corrupted, the chances are that sooner or later some code or data somewhere will get corrupted in such a way that instead of being bad, it is just slightly diffferent, eventually one of these little fragments of code may be corrupted in such a way that it is able to make copies of itself.

When this piece of code starts to make copies of itself, it will also be subject to damage and corruption. Eventually one of these may be altered in such a way that allows it to copy itself better, as there is only a limited amount of storage space the code fragments will have to compete, they will be tested for fitness. Only the strong will survive...

Dude, don't mean to be harsh, but this is not evolution. When a packet of data is recieved that is bad, or a packet is not recieved at all, it will simply be discarded and resent. It's not gonna mutate and then take on animal like characteristics, as you say.

[Icarus]

My vote still goes toward the anti-virus companies to be the ones that make the major virii...then once the main code is out there all the copy cats take it and modify it

An endless cycle of revenue...once sales start to get a bit stale, make a new virus and the cycle repeats.

Of course, I'm crazy so I may just be delusional

[spagnitz]

Originally posted by Devsforev
Dude, don't mean to be harsh, but this is not evolution. When a packet of data is recieved that is bad, or a packet is not recieved at all, it will simply be discarded and resent. It's not gonna mutate and then take on animal like characteristics, as you say.

You are applying humanistic terms to a physical process, almost anything which involves replication can be subject to evolution. Take genetic algorithms for instance.

In anycase if you have a certain environmental pressure (checking packets and discarding the bad etc..) given enough time it's likely evolution will occur. Saying that this just isn't possible is like those that say evolution in nature isn't possible, there may be an extremely low probability that it could occur but I don't think it's zero (you couldn never actually prove it's zero anyway).

[bandwidth_pig]

Originally posted by spagnitz
You are applying humanistic terms to a physical process, almost anything which involves replication can be subject to evolution. Take genetic algorithms for instance.

In anycase if you have a certain environmental pressure (checking packets and discarding the bead etc..) given enough time it's likely evolution can occur. Saying that this just isn't possible is like those that say evolution in nature isn't possible, there may be an extremely low probability that it could occur but I don't think it's zero (you couldn never actually prove it's zero anyway).

It isn't possible because you are comparing living organisms to something that is not alive. A packet by itself is nothing but a binary representation of machine language. It is a series of ones and zeros. It can't mutate. Packets are constantly checked for such "mutation" and as mentioned previously, they will be simply dropped. Such mutations are often referred to as "runts" or "giants"...but are hardly either one. Evolution in nature is surely possible. Obviously. But again, you are talking about living organisms. Show me one example of a non living organism that has evolved by ITSELF without the intervention of a living organism in the history of the world and I will be truly impressed. That aside, I think your imagination is pretty cool. Don't let anybody stifle it.

[spagnitz]

Originally posted by Devsforev
Dude, don't mean to be harsh, but this is not evolution. When a packet of data is recieved that is bad, or a packet is not recieved at all, it will simply be discarded and resent. It's not gonna mutate and then take on animal like characteristics, as you say.

One other point, have you ever downloaded some file or program and found it was corrupted? I have, but by your reasoning this should never be possible. I should never have been able to recieve any bad or corrupted packets, they should have been discarded before reaching me.

I am not suggesting that virii are currently evolving and propagating on the internet, however I do think there is a small possibilty that it could happen one day.

[spagnitz]

Originally posted by bandwidth_pig
It isn't possible because you are comparing living organisms to something that is not alive. A packet by itself is nothing but a binary representation of machine language. It is a series of ones and zeros. It can't mutate. Packets are constantly checked for such "mutation" and as mentioned previously, they will be simply dropped. Such mutations are often referred to as "runts" or "giants"...but are hardly either one. Evolution in nature is surely possible. Obviously. But again, you are talking about living organisms. Show me one example of a non living organism that has evolved by ITSELF without the intervention of a living organism in the history of the world and I will be truly impressed. That aside, I think your imagination is pretty cool. Don't let anybody stifle it.

You logic is flawed. There has not always been life, OBVIOUSLY at some point non-life evolved into something we now call life.

Also there is a great ongoing debate as to whether viruses (smallpox etc..) can actually be considered alive. Virii mutate and evolve but the do not respire, they have no metabolism. Most virii are nothing more than some RNA, DNA and a little protein. Some virii are only little bits of RNA, almost like little computer programs running on a cell

[andysimmons]

Originally posted by spagnitz
You logic is flawed.No, your logic is flawed. You fail to recognize not only the existance of checksums but you completely lack an understanding of the whole concept behind protocols, communications, and development. Take a Networking 101 class and I promise you'll either fail the class or give up your theory.

[spagnitz]

Originally posted by andysimmons
No, your logic is flawed. You fail to recognize not only the existance of checksums but you completely lack an understanding of the whole concept behind protocols, communications, and development. Take a Networking 101 class and I promise you'll either fail the class or give up your theory.

If you were to send a 100mb file to me 10 billion times and were to do a bit level comparison of the sent and recieved each time, do you think they would prove to be identical each of the 10 billion times? even If the hash or checksums were identical each of the 10 billion times, do you think the files would then also be guaranteed to be identical?

[trashthing]

i was watching TV, and they were talking about this girl who writes viruses. they said she has been programming since she was 6 years old! the people who use viruses are dumb, but the people who create them are very smart. the more people who use Linux, the more Linux viruses there will be.

[o0zi]

I've been programming since I was 6 years old:)

[trashthing]

really? wow! when i was 6 all i got to do was use the FREAKIN WINDOWS 3.1 PAINT PROGRAM! *cough* umm....

[leonpmu]

Originally posted by trashthing
i was watching TV, and they were talking about this girl who writes viruses. they said she has been programming since she was 6 years old! the people who use viruses are dumb, but the people who create them are very smart. the more people who use Linux, the more Linux viruses there will be.

The difference between Linux and Windows is that a) you must be dumb enough to be root to let a virus kill your entire system 2) run a script that you dont know where it comes from 3) we dont have apps like outlook that use stupid code that plays in the background 4) Nothing is more powerful than root!! - the reason why I say this last one is that I managed to get a virus on my Win2k install on my laptop and the little bugger managed to get higher privelage than administrator!!! I had to boot to Linux to delete the offending code!!

Now my theory on Virii is that about 5% of them are written by prvate joes who either want to get back at someone, or have far too much time on their hands, and the rest are guys paid by the AV companies like Mcafee and Symantec... how do you think that they can bring out a removal patch really quick for some but take nearly a month or so for something like code-red???

ALso every hacker - used in real context here, not Hollywood version - when they start out in the DOS or Windows land write a virus, in fact when I joined and unofficial computer nerd - as we were known then - club, we had to write a virus to get in, of course, these were never released to the wild, and destroyed IMMEDIATELY after testing for entrance...

jJust my 2c

Penguins

[andysimmons]

Originally posted by spagnitz
If you were to send a 100mb file to me 10 billion times and were to do a bit level comparison of the sent and recieved each time, do you think they would prove to be identical each of the 10 billion times? even If the hash or checksums were identical each of the 10 billion times, do you think the files would then also be guaranteed to be identical? Since there's a checksum sent in every frame header, then I think 10 billion identical files is likely. But just for the heck of it, let's say you throw all kinds of interference at the wire, and lots of the data is changed, and somehow millions of bad frames pass the checksum verification. And lets even go so far as to say these programs somehow still run when I open them. Let's also say the program changed for the better, and that the person using the improved application repeatedly sends this file to someone else, until another mutation happens just like I described before. You now have your first minor improvements, and the evolutionary process has begun.

Reminder...original question: Where do viruses come from?

So, how long does it take before your mutant program dominates the "weaker" programs, and how many changes must be made before this arbitrary application becomes a dangerous virus? How long before the original application becomes obsolete and gets deleted? Do you see what I'm getting at? W32.Blaster.Worm is not the fittest descendant of Frogger.

That is NOT where viruses come from. Your answer to the original question is totally unfounded.

[spagnitz]

Originally posted by andysimmons
Since there's a checksum sent in every frame header, then I think 10 billion identical files is likely. But just for the heck of it, let's say you throw all kinds of interference at the wire, and lots of the data is changed, and somehow millions of bad frames pass the checksum verification. And lets even go so far as to say these programs somehow still run when I open them. Let's also say the program changed for the better, and that the person using the improved application repeatedly sends this file to someone else, until another mutation happens just like I described before. You now have your first minor improvements, and the evolutionary process has begun.

Reminder...original question: Where do viruses come from?

So, how long does it take before your mutant program dominates the "weaker" programs, and how many changes must be made before this arbitrary application becomes a dangerous virus? How long before the original application becomes obsolete and gets deleted? Do you see what I'm getting at? W32.Blaster.Worm is not the fittest descendant of Frogger.

That is NOT where viruses come from. Your answer to the original question is totally unfounded.



lol I have never promoted this as some type of answer, I have always found it to be an interesting possibilty.


btw since you obviously understand all about checksums and how they work, I am sure you are also aware that it is possible to have two differing files with identical checksums.


You also seem to keep mentioning that something like what I have described would likely take a long time to occur, I am happy we agree. As I have stated more than once, having a piece of computer code mutate into something virus like is very unlikely. My point is that it is not impossible, and is probably more a function of time than any other factor.

[andysimmons]

Originally posted by spagnitz
lol I have never promoted this as some type of answer...Oh ok, that's what confused me in the first place. Your post came as the 2nd response to the question "Where do viruses come from?" so I assumed you were offering an answer.
btw since you obviously understand all about checksums and how they work, I am sure you are also aware that it is possible to have two differing files with identical checksums.Yes, I realize that, but I think we're talking about two different things. I was referring to the checksum that ends every frame that passes through a switch. And while frames with different data may have the same checksum, that kind of constant error checking (vs. checking the whole file after the transfer is complete) minimizes the possibility of corrupted data making it through.
You also seem to keep mentioning that something like what I have described would likely take a long time to occur, I am happy we agree...My point is that it is not impossible, and is probably more a function of time than any other factor.That's what I'm getting at though. Software goes obsolete almost as fast as hardware goes bad, which means you'll only have a very limited amount of time for the mutation to complete. If this were not mainly a function of time, I could understand why you see this as a possibility.

Anyway, I'd better go take a look through the other threads to see if someone needs help with something more pressing :)

Cheers.

[hard candy]

I had read about this:
Genetic programming (http://www.genetic-programming.com/)
So theoretically mutations are possible in computer programming.

[o0zi]

Yes, but in genetic programming doesn't the human looking after the process have to pick the fittest (best) program?

[hard candy]

Not if the computer is programmed to pick it.
"The fact that genetic programming can evolve entities that are competitive with human-produced results suggests that genetic programming can be used as an automated invention machine to create new and useful patentable inventions. In acting as an invention machine, evolutionary methods, such as genetic programming, have the advantage of not being encumbered by preconceptions that limit human problem-solving to well-troden paths."

[moojuece]

wasnt it in the original star trek movie that the voyger probe became kind of like a mutant virus?
vger----that was a sort of a programing evolution....if it happened in star trek it is fact!!!
:)....


/me ducks for cover

[spagnitz]

Originally posted by o0zi
Yes, but in genetic programming doesn't the human looking after the process have to pick the fittest (best) program?

If you want to "grow" some type of procees, alrgorithm etc then you have to set up an environment with rules that determine which candidates in the population multiply and which die out. In this case the rules you are setting would be the human picking the fittest. But this is only necessary when you are tying to obtain something usefull from the evolutionary process (an algorithm that more efficiently converts data type x into data type y for ex, the rules for this system would include a fitness test to see which piece of code does the conversion most efficiently).

Whenever you have a system with population of data (be it dna or machine code), random mutation, reproduction, and environmental pressure you will get natural selection and eventually some type of evolutionary process. You don't need people to pick the fittiest, the simple fact that the internet is setup with specific rules already accomplishes this, we already have rules that determine which code is good or bad and so forth. The candidates judged to be fit would be those that meet or excced these rules.

[carrja99]

Didn't VGER become the borg?

As to the original idea about viruses coming from mutated code... you, dear sir, are very very very wrong. Viruses are pretty sophisticated programs designed to take on parasite like caspabilities, but they are not a random product of nature *cough*

I've written a "play" virus before that was harmless to see how they work. It actually takes quite a bit of complexly written code for the said code just to "pop up" from data packets getting misplaced. Polymorphic virii and womrs ain't new either... I'm not so sure about worms since I really havent followed windows developement, but I recall polymorphic viruses being around at least 1993, if not earlier.

Now, to answer the original question, "Where do virii come from?"

The answer? Several sources. I think sometimes a person might get fired from a job or something, get's pissed off, and decides to get back by writing a virus to corrupt thier databases. Then you have a person who writes a virus to demonstrate that there is an exploitable security hole that needs to be sealed (I recall one of these coming out back when win95 was first released, in which Bill claimed it was impossible for it to get infected) and posts the code for other to see, which is the taken by someone and fiddled with to do thier dasterdly bidding.

VBScripts are EXTREMELY easy to create malicous code... heck, a person could probably read a how to somewhere. Then for the script kiddies, there's hundreds of tools out there where you just select the attributes you want and PRESTO! A virus is custom made just for you! Then you have the "information is free" people who feel they are doing a public service by distributing CDs with the source code for 4,000 viruses and worms, so any kiddie can take them and edit the code a little bit so they have thier own neat virii.

And there have been times someone wrote a program that had virus or worm like characteristics they didnt quite expect. In fact, I believe the guy who wrote one of the first worms actually did it because he was trying to create a program to map the internet, or so he said.

Then you Trojan Horses, which is basically just a program with very bad and evil code like

system("rm -rf /");


which is why it is so stupid to run unknown programs as root! And since windows doesnt make this distinction, one could easily write a program with a few system calls that give you a new identity by deleting all the contents of your hard drive. (note to self: new program to distribute to the script kiddies)

[spagnitz]

Originally posted by carrja99
Didn't VGER become the borg?

As to the original idea about viruses coming from mutated code... you, dear sir, are very very very wrong. Viruses are pretty sophisticated programs designed to take on parasite like caspabilities, but they are not a random product of nature *cough*

I've written a "play" virus before that was harmless to see how they work. It actually takes quite a bit of complexly written code for the said code just to "pop up" from data packets getting misplaced. Polymorphic virii and womrs ain't new either... I'm not so sure about worms since I really havent followed windows developement, but I recall polymorphic viruses being around at least 1993, if not earlier.

Now, to answer the original question, "Where do virii come from?"

The answer? Several sources. I think sometimes a person might get fired from a job or something, get's pissed off, and decides to get back by writing a virus to corrupt thier databases. Then you have a person who writes a virus to demonstrate that there is an exploitable security hole that needs to be sealed (I recall one of these coming out back when win95 was first released, in which Bill claimed it was impossible for it to get infected) and posts the code for other to see, which is the taken by someone and fiddled with to do thier dasterdly bidding.

VBScripts are EXTREMELY easy to create malicous code... heck, a person could probably read a how to somewhere. Then for the script kiddies, there's hundreds of tools out there where you just select the attributes you want and PRESTO! A virus is custom made just for you! Then you have the "information is free" people who feel they are doing a public service by distributing CDs with the source code for 4,000 viruses and worms, so any kiddie can take them and edit the code a little bit so they have thier own neat virii.

And there have been times someone wrote a program that had virus or worm like characteristics they didnt quite expect. In fact, I believe the guy who wrote one of the first worms actually did it because he was trying to create a program to map the internet, or so he said.

Then you Trojan Horses, which is basically just a program with very bad and evil code like

system("rm -rf /");


which is why it is so stupid to run unknown programs as root! And since windows doesnt make this distinction, one could easily write a program with a few system calls that give you a new identity by deleting all the contents of your hard drive. (note to self: new program to distribute to the script kiddies)


Another person who completely misses my point. I really don't see how you can think that I am implying that all (or even any current viruses) are the result of what I have stated. I am merely stating that it there is a very small possibiltiy that something like this could emerge from our data networks.

To suggest that it is impossible just because computer viuses are too complicated is foolish, they are nowhere near as complicated as even the simplest microbe which are a product of evolution.

Did you really think I was implying that a virus the result of random mutation would likely include a message "Billy Gates why do you make this possible? Stop making money and fix your software!!"??

[andysimmons]

Originally posted by carrja99
I believe the guy who wrote one of the first worms actually did it because he was trying to create a program to map the internet, or so he said.Those maps are pretty cool.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/cubegoodies/posters/techie/5c26/

[KneeLess]

spagnitz, I thought your "theory" was fun to read. Even though it'll most likely never occur, it was a fun read.

As to the question "Who makes these viruses?", here is my answer. The Bogeyman! Okay no seriously. It probably started out like people wanted to see what they could do. And then other people tried to make viruses that could distribute themselves. Well, it worked.

What makes viruses? Curiosity.

[gretchen]

Originally posted by o0zi
I've been programming since I was 6 years old:)

Me too!

10 PRINT "Once upon a time."
20 PRINT "There was a castle."

:p

[Icarus]

Originally posted by gretchen
Me too!

10 PRINT "Once upon a time."
20 PRINT "There was a castle."

:p Hehe, cool...I'm not the only one that was making text adventures as a kid using BASIC :D


10 PRINT "HOME"
20 PRINT " SWEET"
30 GOTO 10

[bandwidth_pig]

Originally posted by spagnitz
You logic is flawed. There has not always been life, OBVIOUSLY at some point non-life evolved into something we now call life.

Also there is a great ongoing debate as to whether viruses (smallpox etc..) can actually be considered alive. Virii mutate and evolve but the do not respire, they have no metabolism. Most virii are nothing more than some RNA, DNA and a little protein. Some virii are only little bits of RNA, almost like little computer programs running on a cell

<FLAME ON>

I am willing to admit my logic is flawed. The concept of logic itself is flawed...I fail to see why my practice in this would be an exception. Now you claim that OBVIOUSLY at some point non-life evolved into something we now call life. Your too funny (full of yourself would be more precise). And when was that Mr. Logic? Funny how thousands of scientists who spend their lives examining this very subject haven't found this OBVIOUS moment in time you have certainly found. Since this moment in history is so OBVIOUS when was it? And since this is so OBVIOUS (what a joke...I mean really) what non-life THING was it that we all elvolved from? The greatest minds in history have somehow missed this OBVIOUS thing you know all about. And you tell me MY logic is flawed? Hehhehe...yeah. My logic is flawed. But I'll take flawed logic over your foolishness ANY DAY. Flawed logic Vs ZERO COMMON SENSE. I think flawed logic is going to knock your butt out in the first round. Now prove your OBVIOUS statement with something tangible and real. YOU CAN'T. Not one link. Darwinism has never been proven. It is a THEORY. It may be a correct one, but there is no moment in time where it has been proven to be 100% fact. For you to come out of nowhere, with ZERO...zilch...nada...just repeating what you read AT BEST and claim that it is OBVIOUS that evolution is the case would insinuate that this is a proven fact. It is not a proven fact. And you are a cocky little twirp who likes to run his mouth. Show the facts. Talk is cheap Mr. Obvious. Sheesh.

</FLAME OFF>:mad:

[spagnitz]

Originally posted by bandwidth_pig
<FLAME ON>

I am willing to admit my logic is flawed. The concept of logic itself is flawed...I fail to see why my practice in this would be an exception. Now you claim that OBVIOUSLY at some point non-life evolved into something we now call life. Your too funny (full of yourself would be more precise). And when was that Mr. Logic? Funny how thousands of scientists who spend their lives examining this very subject haven't found this OBVIOUS moment in time you have certainly found. Since this moment in history is so OBVIOUS when was it? And since this is so OBVIOUS (what a joke...I mean really) what non-life THING was it that we all elvolved from? The greatest minds in history have somehow missed this OBVIOUS thing you know all about. And you tell me MY logic is flawed? Hehhehe...yeah. My logic is flawed. But I'll take flawed logic over your foolishness ANY DAY. Flawed logic Vs ZERO COMMON SENSE. I think flawed logic is going to knock your butt out in the first round. Now prove your OBVIOUS statement with something tangible and real. YOU CAN'T. Not one link. Darwinism has never been proven. It is a THEORY. It may be a correct one, but there is no moment in time where it has been proven to be 100% fact. For you to come out of nowhere, with ZERO...zilch...nada...just repeating what you read AT BEST and claim that it is OBVIOUS that evolution is the case would insinuate that this is a proven fact. It is not a proven fact. And you are a cocky little twirp who likes to run his mouth. Show the facts. Talk is cheap Mr. Obvious. Sheesh.

</FLAME OFF>:mad:

a kook ^, or maybe the above is just a joke?

[hard candy]

I think I'm finding out how viruses get started-in some hot cauldron of emotional fumes. :D

[DMR]

Originally posted by bandwidth_pig
<FLAME ON> No.

bw_pig:
Our Squelch-Fu better than your Flame-Fu; don't make us prove it. Your post is confrontational and abusive, and that doesn't fly; please keep a cooler head in the future.

To all: Please keep it civil here; if this thread gets any any more flame-bait posts or posts responding to said flame-bait, we are done.

Sorry, but this does get old...

[Sepero]

Ok bandwidth_pig and spagnitz, you guys can stop hammering each other now. I'm willing to bet that no one cares which of you wins this argument. They all get the idea.

Is it possible for a virus(or worm) to evolve from corrupt code, yes.
Has it ever happened, I seriously doubt it.

Most of our software isn't used long enough for it to easily evolve into a virus. Most of our software has several updates in a single year, and sometimes several updates every month.

If anything, I'd say it's probably more likely that a virus would accidentally appear from a programmer error...

[roamingnomad]

The absurdity of spagnitz's idea, although it was certainly entertaining, is very unlikely. I'm not going to hammer him. Just know that I'm going to use this example in my next Creation v Evolution debate. ;)

My previous example was that if you put Windows' calc.exe onto a floppy disk and swipe a magnet across it, even if you do it 10,000 times, you won't get Visual Basic or Word. ( I actually tried it at home 5 times: I had to reformat the disk five times to avoid Windows' stupid disk checker!)

[spagnitz]

When skynet takes over, who will be laughing then? lol

[spagnitz]

Originally posted by spagnitz
When skynet takes over, who will be laughing then? lol ,

btw Although many of you surely think I am crazy for even contemplating the sheer impossibility of an idea such as something evolving from our computer systems, I do not see why it is necessary to spew insults.

[andysimmons]

Man, we need a /dev/chaos forum...

[Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379]

Originally posted by spagnitz

btw Although many of you surely think I am crazy for even contemplating the sheer impossibility of an idea such as something evolving from our computer systems, I do not see why it is necessary to spew insults.

There's not any reason to spew insults-- you're right. Can we just drop it, please? I'm asking nicely...

But, though your theory about "accidental" or "evolutionary" modification is steeped in impossibility, there's nothing unusual about a program that can do one thing, but be written to either modify itself or delete itself after execution. It could be an instant messenger, but then modify its stack to do something different afterwards. I'm not a programmer, but I could see how someone could intentionally write a program, malicious or not, to change its form, even over and over again, after each time its specific iteration does what it's supposed to do.

[baertooth]

Virus, in computer terms, means that a piece of code that is self replicating. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't have to be malignant, it doesn't have to be benign. Just self replicating.

If I download The Gimp 10 billion times, what's the chance that one of those downloads will be corrupted enough that the program will become a self replicating agent?

NONE!!!

ZERO!!!

A corrupted program in theory, could cause monumental problems on your machine, but if it wasn't designed to be self replicating in the first place, or something/someone did that for it, it can't become a computer virus. Period.

[Sepero]

If I download The Gimp 10 billion times, what's the chance that one of those downloads will be corrupted enough that the program will become a self replicating agent?

NONE!!!

ZERO!!!
I believe the exact equation comes somewhere closer to 0.000000000001% :D

Moral of the story: never say never...

Anyway, back to the original question:
I make the viruses! I write them in Java too. heheh You'll never find out who I am!!!! :p



sep...... doh!

[DMR]

Originally posted by gretchen
Me too!

10 PRINT "Once upon a time."
20 PRINT "There was a castle."Just BASIC line numbers and "PRINT"?! Oh, my- now I really feel old and crusty...
2000 21 LXI H,205FH
2001 5F
2002 20
2003 11 LXI D,2064H
2004 64
2005 20
2006 OE MVI C,10H
2007 10
2008 7E MOV A,M
2009 12 STAX D
200A 2B DCX H
200B 1B DCX D
200C 0D DCR C
200D 02 JNZ 2008H
200E 08
200F 20
2010 CF RST 1 Or something like that, IIRAAA...

To anyone can decipher the above: is this disease treatable?

[spagnitz]

Originally posted by baertooth
Virus, in computer terms, means that a piece of code that is self replicating. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't have to be malignant, it doesn't have to be benign. Just self replicating.

If I download The Gimp 10 billion times, what's the chance that one of those downloads will be corrupted enough that the program will become a self replicating agent?

NONE!!!

ZERO!!!

A corrupted program in theory, could cause monumental problems on your machine, but if it wasn't designed to be self replicating in the first place, or something/someone did that for it, it can't become a computer virus. Period.

On a side note.. do you realize that it is actually impossible for you to conclude that he probablity of something like this occuring is zero? Think about it

[hard candy]

Spagnitz, I csalculate the odds of you NOT getting flamed again in one form or fashion as close to zero. :D
I agree with you that anything is possible, the thing we have to deal with is probability. Which do you think has the greatest probability- winning the Powerball lottery at 1 in 73 million (I think that is close to the actual odds) or running into a virus formed from random bits of code. It's probably impossible to determine the actual odds but keep buying those lottery tickets!
Now it looks like there would have to be some outside force or stimulus to cause viruses to form- what would be such a force?

[carrja99]

Originally posted by hard candy

Now it looks like there would have to be some outside force or stimulus to cause viruses to form- what would be such a force?

I dunno... perhaps the person coding the virus or using virus building programs?

Spagnitz -
Don't let them stop you. You seem to be a very imaginative person, and your ideas about virus groing from random corrupted bits is fairly amusing, heck maybe even grounds for a good story!

But before you argue that your ideas are in fact true, please go take a few computer science courses. Then you are welcome to come join us in the real world. :D

[spagnitz]

Originally posted by carrja99
I dunno... perhaps the person coding the virus or using virus building programs?

Spagnitz -
Don't let them stop you. You seem to be a very imaginative person, and your ideas about virus groing from random corrupted bits is fairly amusing, heck maybe even grounds for a good story!

But before you argue that your ideas are in fact true, please go take a few computer science courses. Then you are welcome to come join us in the real world. :D

Thank you, but believe it or not, I have already taken a "few" computer science courses.

[Artimus]

I do agree, viruses created from corrupted programs is a pretty cool story.

Do I believe it could happen? Some day.

Do I think that I'll be alive long enough to see it? Probably not.

-Artimus

[bandwidth_pig]

Originally posted by DMR
No.

bw_pig:
Our Squelch-Fu better than your Flame-Fu; don't make us prove it. Your post is confrontational and abusive, and that doesn't fly; please keep a cooler head in the future.

To all: Please keep it civil here; if this thread gets any any more flame-bait posts or posts responding to said flame-bait, we are done.

Sorry, but this does get old...

I did handle myself rather poorly. I was a bit confrontational and abusive. Point taken.

[DMR]

Originally posted by bandwidth_pig
I did handle myself rather poorly. I was a bit confrontational and abusive. Point taken. Thanks.

We all have our bad days; no grudge held.

:)

[Kaligraphic]

While the idea of viri 'evolving' from transmission errors is... unlikely... to say the least, the 'genetic' material of viri may, in fact, evolve into other viri. Consider that the source code for many viri is available freely. Given motivation and example, many who would otherwise have to learn a thing or two will 're-brand' or minutely change an existing virus. If they have some ability, they may manage to improve the virus, causing it to be more virulent. Being more virulent, the newer form will gain more recognition, causing its code to also be distributed more widely, and increasing the probability of said code being used as the base for another virus.

Of course, said evolution requires intelligent intervention, and, like any model of gradual change, can only become a subsequent iteration of the same basic concept. (same problem as with gradualist explanations of biological evolution - half a wing won't fly, and will just be a hindrance on the ground.)

[robotjok]

Many would count this unusual story as paranoid but there is a great fictional book to be written (Well, maybe not that fictional). It would begin and end something like this:

Corporate person indirectly words a request to R&D middle man to develop a keen Antivirus or ad stopper, Middle man indirectly words request to back door man, back door man indirectly words request to the code man, code man makes awsome but specific virus to attack specifically corporate or specific company software, ... Who now is writing a fix or an antivirus or an ad stopper or a program, or gains much needed attention all of a sudden in a company who serves well a solution to the problem at hand that gets sent up to the back door man who takes it to the middle man who presents it to the Corporate guy who sells it. He makes more big bucks and does not have to "Indirectly" pay the middleman man who diretly pays the back door man, who directly pays the code man for developing the fix or solution and everybody makes money and everyone is happy and when the bucks run out... They do it again, except. Now there's a different code guy just to keep things a little safe. Even so, they are pretty safe because no one ever requested specifically or by word of mouth to create such a malicious thing. That would be paranoid and impossible to prove even if it was possible to assume. Besides, the back door man never requested the code man to actually do such a thing... That was not what he meant. Why that code man should be arrested. It is the code man who does get busted, with absolutely nothing to prove (But a lot richer.)

Okay, now that is just one small unlikely scenario that may have some relation to an actual event. But think about it. The problems these malicious codes are causing are in the billions right? (In small insignificant numbers and unheard of code, could mean several million) Well, what it is that he has lost gets found by another. It's really a balancing act.

If someone would write a book about a middle man, I would read it. If i wrote it I'm positive there would be some form of speculation that I am somewhere in the middle. However, my job is not in the business of knowing one way or the other. Why, everything is sent via the web... No reason for it to ever come across the middleman's hands now is there? One more note... I ask that you observe the new life styles of some... naughty code persons who served (time) and well for their maliciousness. One lives in the high society of... Oh never mind, can't even go there.

Chow and chow




completely fictional my friends... Hope you all had a great laugh and some thought to go along with it.

[EnigmaOne]

Originally posted by mahdi
My vote still goes toward the anti-virus companies to be the ones that make the major virii...then once the main code is out there all the copy cats take it and modify it

An endless cycle of revenue...once sales start to get a bit stale, make a new virus and the cycle repeats.

Of course, I'm crazy so I may just be delusional

Yeah. I can see a stable guy like John McAfee going for it.
Michelangelo, indeed!

[knute]

Originally posted by bandwidth_pig
It isn't possible because you are comparing living organisms to something that is not alive. A packet by itself is nothing but a binary representation of machine language. It is a series of ones and zeros. It can't mutate. Packets are constantly checked for such "mutation" and as mentioned previously, they will be simply dropped. Such mutations are often referred to as "runts" or "giants"...but are hardly either one. Evolution in nature is surely possible. Obviously. But again, you are talking about living organisms. Show me one example of a non living organism that has evolved by ITSELF without the intervention of a living organism in the history of the world and I will be truly impressed. That aside, I think your imagination is pretty cool. Don't let anybody stifle it.

That would be the volcano.

Proof of which is the state of Hawaii.

[knute]

Originally posted by bandwidth_pig
<FLAME ON>
Darwinism has never been proven. It is a THEORY. It may be a correct one, but there is no moment in time where it has been proven to be 100% fact.
</FLAME OFF>:mad:

Actually, Darwin regretted ever coming up with evolution and actually withdrew his theory before he died.

[knute]

Originally posted by spagnitz
When skynet takes over, who will be laughing then? lol

The machines. :D

[knute]

Originally posted by Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379
There's not any reason to spew insults-- you're right. Can we just drop it, please? I'm asking nicely...

But, though your theory about "accidental" or "evolutionary" modification is steeped in impossibility, there's nothing unusual about a program that can do one thing, but be written to either modify itself or delete itself after execution. It could be an instant messenger, but then modify its stack to do something different afterwards. I'm not a programmer, but I could see how someone could intentionally write a program, malicious or not, to change its form, even over and over again, after each time its specific iteration does what it's supposed to do.

Macros that people write for muds do that all the time.
I've seen the code to do it in Tinyfugue (http://tf.tcp.com).
They have triggers set up that monitor certain events, then based upon those events they have other triggers to handle it that are "one-shot" that delete themselves after they have executed, or after they have executed a certain number of times.

[bandwidth_pig]

Originally posted by knute
That would be the volcano.

Proof of which is the state of Hawaii.

How is it exactly that volcanos have evolved? I do not think change and evolution are the same thing. Glaciers change. They melt. They aren't living organisms...but I hardly call that melting evoltuion.

[knute]

Originally posted by bandwidth_pig
How is it exactly that volcanos have evolved? I do not think change and evolution are the same thing. Glaciers change. They melt. They aren't living organisms...but I hardly call that melting evoltuion.

Applying the biological definition of evolve to a non-living organism is a misapplication, however, there is another definition that fits this.



From WordNet (r) 2.0 (August 2003) [wn]:

evolution
n 1: a process in which something passes by degrees to a
different stage (especially a more advanced or mature
stage); "the development of his ideas took many years";
"the evolution of Greek civilization"; "the slow
development of her skill as a writer" [syn:
{development}] [ant: {degeneration}]
2: (biology) the sequence of events involved in the
evolutionary development of a species or taxonomic group
of organisms [syn: {phylogeny}, {phylogenesis}]


Definition one would apply to both the volcano and the glacier, and neither one of them has human intervention to perpetuate it's evolution. qed

[bwkaz]

Why, oh why, do people (most of the time it's people with fewer than 10 posts, but not always) manage to find 6-month-old threads and bring them back from the graves that by all rights they should stay in? Why? Does anyone have any idea?

Because I sure don't...

[knute]

Originally posted by bwkaz
Why, oh why, do people (most of the time it's people with fewer than 10 posts, but not always) manage to find 6-month-old threads and bring them back from the graves that by all rights they should stay in? Why? Does anyone have any idea?

Because I sure don't...

Hrmmm.... Heads to search for some such thread.... :D

:eek: IT"S ALIVE!!!!!!! :eek:

[EnigmaOne]

Originally posted by bwkaz
Why, oh why, do people (most of the time it's people with fewer than 10 posts, but not always) manage to find 6-month-old threads and bring them back from the graves that by all rights they should stay in? Why? Does anyone have any idea?

Because I sure don't...

Maybe I heard you wrong, but isn't that a bit of a nudge in the wrong direction?

::: off to search for old threads to resurrect ::: ;)

[twilli227]

bwkaz, I think it was a self-mutating evolutionalized virus, that was corrupted by checksum. You better check the database.
Thats my theory anyway.

[bwkaz]

/me is just happy we aren't debating evolution anymore...

Oh crap. Now look what I did! Hey, look! Isn't that Linus over there? *ducks out of the thread*

[Arjay]

personally, i think its mainly script-kiddie types that are a little more advanced in their knowledge that do most of them.

If that's what script kiddies are capable of now then i wish i was one, or at least had the skills they have. The reason i say that is, have you looked at the MyDoom source code? I pasted it into word just out of curiosity and did a word count (well line count)....it was around 10,500 lines of code...in assembly language. I mean i take my hat off to anyone that can program in assembly, especially when it is around 10,000 lines.

Cheers :-)

[bwkaz]

Yeah, but assembly's like that. If you take a 500-line C program and compile it, I bet you get ten thousand lines of assembly. Each line of assembly is one processor instruction, after all, and ten thousand instructions isn't all that many.

[duncanbojangles]

Vaguely reminds me of CoreWars. Too bad I was never good at programming the little buggers. :(

[Arjay]

Yeah, but assembly's like that. If you take a 500-line C program and compile it, I bet you get ten thousand lines of assembly. Each line of assembly is one processor instruction, after all, and ten thousand instructions isn't all that many.

Good point, now you mention it. Although i have never programmed in C i did read a while back that you could compile C into assembly, i just didn't realise that it would increase that much in size...but it obviously would thinking about it now.

Cheers :-)

[bwkaz]

Originally posted by Arjay
i did read a while back that you could compile C into assembly, I should say so. That's how gcc and most other Unix C compilers work, after all. They don't assemble anything -- they translate the user's C into some form of assembly, then invoke the system's assembler (/usr/bin/as, usually) on the output.

Actually to be perfectly technical, the 'gcc' executable doesn't do anything to your code. It feeds it into various other processors -- the C preprocessor (which removes comments, #defines, and other stuff like that), the C compiler (which translates into assembly, possibly optimizing along the way), and the system assembler (which takes the assembly and turns it into a object file). Then it invokes the linker on the various object files to create an executable.

'gcc' itself is just a driver program, controlled by a specs file (/usr/lib/gcc-lib/*/*/specs).

[cybertron]

personally, i think its mainly script-kiddie types that are a little more advanced in their knowledge that do most of them.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. No script kiddie worth the title could write some of these viruses. Keep in mind that "script-kiddie" sort of implies a lack of real knowledge of hacking. I don't remember where I read it, but someone interviewed a real hacker one time and they said that what happens is other real hackers write the code and then post it freely on the net where some script kiddie can download and compile it and then claim it as their own (usually by putting their name or something personally identifiable in the comments. Duh:rolleyes: ). This way it is very unlikely that the real hackers will get caught, but the well-written virii still find their way into the wild.

Of course, there are always the automated virus writing programs that script-kiddies are quite capable of using to create pseudo-original virii as well.

I'll look around and see if I can find the article that I read this in. It was actually kind of interesting, if depressing for those of us trying to avoid getting viruses.

-Ben

[o0zi]

It was in the online New York Times I think, posted on Slashdot.