What if Apache only accept Mozilla? [Archive]

Riley

07-16-2003, 01:39 PM

redhat81 you're talking like a person who has not become very familiar with linux. Linux is cool cause it works a lot better than windows and people get really excited when they start using linux because they didn't know something so much better than windows existed. Then again you're probably just talking from your redhat experience. I hate Redhat cause it's so much like microsoft.

JeffBarge

07-16-2003, 02:54 PM

Think very carefully about what you're trying to do...do you really want everyone in the world using Linux? I'm not saying its only cool because its not mainstream - in fact, I think its cool because it just makes more sense than windows....however, regardless of the fact that I like Linux more than windows, I feel windows still has its place...the general populace would die if they tried using *nix/bsd - they simply want to turn the computer on, type a document or browse the web, and turn it off....the idea of a boot script is alien to them...if all they want to do is use the computer for simple things, let them do it in windows, since its probably easier for them anyway....
-JeffBarge

bwkaz

07-16-2003, 10:15 PM

The day that I see a message from one of the close-to-mainstream Linux programs that's along the lines of "an error has occurred and I need to close", with that amount of actual information in it, is the day I move to FreeBSD.

Linux is not Windows, and more stupidity that it gets in its user population (and I feel I should edit this sentence -- no, I'm not saying that anyone in this thread is stupid, I'm just saying that the VAST majority of Windows users are, so PLEASE, PLEASE don't take that comment personally!), the more chance it'll have errors like that. The moment it does, I'm gone.

yongbeng

07-16-2003, 10:24 PM

Quote from bwkaz

I'm just saying that the VAST majority of Windows users are, so PLEASE, PLEASE don't take that comment personally!), the more chance it'll have errors like that.

I have to disagree with you on that...I don't really think the vast majority window user are using windows because they like it..most of the time..they don't have a choice...for my case, I have 2 workstation..one is linux and the other is windows..the reason I'm using windows is due to some of the application be written in VB and I don't have much choice but to use windows..taking wine would be rather a hassle and I don't think my boss would allow me to do so...

furthemore, alot of young graduates came into this working world knowing only windows...it's becuz I was being exposed to linux somehow or rather which I'm loving it..

so you see..alot of windows user don't have a choice..

redhat81

07-16-2003, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by Riley
redhat81 you're talking like a person who has not become very familiar with linux. Linux is cool cause it works a lot better than windows and people get really excited when they start using linux because they didn't know something so much better than windows existed. Then again you're probably just talking from your redhat experience. I hate Redhat cause it's so much like microsoft.

That's not true, give a person new to a computers a Windows machine and a Linux machine and they'll tread right over to the Windows one. There's a reason.

Only reason I use Linux is for my servers. When it comes to running applications, I can't trust Linux. Xine crashes all the time, some of my hardware isn't "fully supported", etc. Linux is only good for servers. I can't wait for my hardware to become old for it to be supported.

There's also something about paid supervised professionals doing their jobs than volunteers with some spare time...y'know?

bazoukas

07-17-2003, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by redhat81
That's not true, give a person new to a computers a Windows machine and a Linux machine and they'll tread right over to the Windows one. There's a reason.

Only reason I use Linux is for my servers. When it comes to running applications, I can't trust Linux. Xine crashes all the time, some of my hardware isn't "fully supported", etc. Linux is only good for servers. I can't wait for my hardware to become old for it to be supported.

There's also something about paid supervised professionals doing their jobs than volunteers with some spare time...y'know?

Dude i dunno what hardware you using....but I never ever had problems with Hardware support. And am not BSing you. I was an avid Windows user and now am up the point that when I buy hardware, I dont even check if its supported or not by Linux.

I have an ABIT at7. On the box it claimed with proud big letters that is a only 2k-xp mobo.
Red hat, knoppix, Suse, had no problem recognizing everything on it on board nic and sound card.
I have a Biostar mobo....same deal with it. On board nic sound car. PCI sound card is good too.
DVD player works on all distros mentioned above. CD Recorder works in all distros.
Scanner works in Suse by default. In RH I need to download the drivers. Havent tried it with knoppix.

I got a third computer with an odd *** brand mobo. Smooth there as well.

And my hardware are not old. They are brand new.
And I am to the point now that when I buy new HW I dont even worry about it, if its gonna work or not.

I have installed Linux in other Machines besides my own and everything went well.

I dunno what kind of odd ball Hardware you got there dude but I have yet to experience the problems you have experienced :dunno:

And because XINE crushes all the time you dont trust Linux? :confused:

And you know that unsupervised programmers wrote all the server apps that you use..right? ;)

dlausevic

07-17-2003, 04:54 AM

No offense, but your little idea makes no sense at all. The idea of forcing a website to allow one browser over the other sounds an aweful like a company none of us likes. But then, I could be wrong.

dlausevic

07-17-2003, 04:57 AM

Originally posted by bazoukas
Dude i dunno what hardware you using....but I never ever had problems with Hardware support. And am not BSing you. I was an avid Windows user and now am up the point that when I buy hardware, I dont even check if its supported or not by Linux.

I have an ABIT at7. On the box it claimed with proud big letters that is a only 2k-xp mobo.
Red hat, knoppix, Suse, had no problem recognizing everything on it on board nic and sound card.
I have a Biostar mobo....same deal with it. On board nic sound car. PCI sound card is good too.
DVD player works on all distros mentioned above. CD Recorder works in all distros.
Scanner works in Suse by default. In RH I need to download the drivers. Havent tried it with knoppix.

I got a third computer with an odd *** brand mobo. Smooth there as well.

And my hardware are not old. They are brand new.
And I am to the point now that when I buy new HW I dont even worry about it, if its gonna work or not.

I have installed Linux in other Machines besides my own and everything went well.

I dunno what kind of odd ball Hardware you got there dude but I have yet to experience the problems you have experienced :dunno:

And because XINE crushes all the time you dont trust Linux? :confused:

And you know that unsupervised programmers wrote all the server apps that you use..right? ;)

Here, here!!!

yongbeng

07-17-2003, 05:06 AM

while...I guess some of the linux user out there just didn't really like MS monopolizing the market...but at the same time, they would always like Linux to be the underdog. You see, once we heard of Linux being in some major MNC or govt bodies, you can't help but feel happy about it.. VIce versa, if we do hear the same thing about Microsoft, it just makes you wonder..

I'm just perplex in the sense that an OS like Linux, which isn't as mainstream as MS Windows, could be so powerful and useful. Just imagine, if we have the experts in windows to go into linux, the future of linux is beyond our imagination...

so, even if linux gonna cost some money..face it..we will still pay for it..people is paying such hefty sum for a not so useful OS, and some can even be so happy about it...what about linux which is even more useful?

just put yourself in the shoe of a user who is really using linux..I mean those companies which is running linux...given the choice of let say windows 2003 being free, would you choose it? I doubt it.. it's not just the money, it's the fact about being opersource and openstandard...that's the beauty I believe...

antsi

07-17-2003, 06:15 AM

Linux is a way of life! Purely, I use Linux since it works much better than Windows! I mean stability and security. I've been using Linux for about a year now, complitely without Windows. Everything works fine. Even on my brand new Compaq Presario laptop.

Only thing that bugs me is ATI, since it won't release capable drivers for their products. ATI could be rated second, after Microsoft, as a "bad company" :)

Remember don't take this very seriously ;)

yongbeng

07-17-2003, 06:25 AM

while..its all about drivers isn't it? yah...seems like alot of application nowadays still goes only with windows...I really hope more hardware vendors can actually engineered more drivers for linux..that would be a beautiful thing!

glussier

07-17-2003, 10:50 AM

Dude i dunno what hardware you using....but I never ever had problems with Hardware support. And am not BSing you. I was an avid Windows user and now am up the point that when I buy hardware, I dont even check if its supported or not by Linux.

You probably were lucky. I can find you plenty of scanners and cameras which are not supported under linux. I can also find plenty of video cards where you won't never get 3d hardware Opengl working. What about printers now? Even sound card, the sound blaster is probably the best supported sound card, but yet try getting true surround sound working on an SB Audigy, yes you get surround sound, but the back speakers are only a mirror of the front ones. In fact, In my opinion, this is where linux is weak, add better hardware support and 1 or 2 mainstream applications, such as Photoshop, Microstation, Autocad and the desktop's user base will dramatically increase.

yongbeng

07-17-2003, 09:27 PM

while..ok...it could be true that some hardwares are not supported by linux..that's why it's linux..but, dunno how true it is..heard that mandrake 9.x works on quite a series of HWs..

btw....this thread is suppose to be something related to apache and IE...I'm amazed by the way it had became a debate on linux being compatible...strange..:confused:

DerekKraan

07-17-2003, 10:32 PM

You would trust supervised professionals who are supervised by greedy corporate minds that only care about the bottom line? Every open source developer is supervised by every person who wants to look at the code. Likewise problems in programs can be fixed by anyone. I would be more worried about not being able to view the source code of these proprietary apps. Who knows what crazy conspiracy Microsoft has with its closed source apps. There is no limit to how they can misuse your computers if they have the will. Does that possibility exist with open source? I don't think so.

redhat81

07-17-2003, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by DerekKraan
You would trust supervised professionals who are supervised by greedy corporate minds that only care about the bottom line?
Of course I do. They're interested in the integrity of their product (it brings them profit) so they're willing to spend a lot more to make a product that works.

I suppose every patent holder in the world has a "crazy conspiracy" to take over the world.

DerekKraan

07-17-2003, 11:11 PM

I think they're probably more interested in planned obsolesence than product integrity. Wouldn't it put your mind at ease to be able to see the code and verify it's integrity yourself?

redhat81

07-17-2003, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by DerekKraan
I think they're probably more interested in planned obsolesence than product integrity. Wouldn't it put your mind at ease to be able to see the code and verify it's integrity yourself?

Doesn't an open source just make it easier to discover new holes?

Let us say that a detailed blue print of Fort Knox in Kentucky were available to all just to let the people know that everything is heavily secured and under control. Wouldn't this very blueprint aid people in getting past this security? It could lead to tips and ideas on strengthening it from noble people, but there needs to be just *one* person with cruel intentions to break this.

Some big companies do use open source applications like Apache, but they are not in their original form. They have internal programmers clearing up any mishaps they may find.

You can't plan obsolescence, it just happens. I cannot use my copy of Windows XP in 10 years just as I cannot use RedHat 9 in ten years. They both will not carry support for whatever is out there in the future. I will have to upgrade BOTH of them. I find myself forced to upgrade Apache and the like every so often, just like I have to upgrade Windows with their packs. Are they forced? No, but if I want my system working, I need to do it.

From a technological standpoint, Linux is good, but I honestly can't stand these pseudo-anti-corporate kids and the image they're broadcasting about all Linux users. If this keeps up, I'm going to drop Linux just because of that.

I don't want to be branded as part of a cult that wants to convert everyone to open-source and Linux.

DerekKraan

07-17-2003, 11:35 PM

There's a long running debate I'm sure about open source being easier to discover holes in. I'm not going to go in depth with this, but let's say that instead of being a pessimist and saying that it's easier to discover holes, you be an optimist and say that it's easier to patch holes. Planned obsolesance isn't something that maybe you completely understand. Windows doesn't have to have a minimum RAM requirement of 128MB. That's absurd, IMO.

I thought it important to point out that most big companies do use 'stock' versions of Apache, php, and other open source programs. As if regular companies have the resources to devote to constantly developing a program that is robust and secure in the first place! Sure they might have techies patching programs as they find bugs, but they certainly have to by law release these bugs to the public. And let me tell you, windows being as closed source as it is certainly has it's share of bugs and backdoors. You'd think that being closed source has helped this, but apparently it hasn't.

I also find it amusing that the Longhorn version of windows is going to have a minimum requirement of some absurd video card that isn't even out yet. That's planned obsolesence in effect right there. The fact that they're bloating programs just to increase minimum system requirements and to make a new version 'better' than the old is disgusting. It makes old PCs useless, and only puts more money in microsoft's (already deep) pockets.

It's not integrity that matters, it's planned obsolesence, and profit.

bwkaz

07-17-2003, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by yongbeng
I have to disagree with you on that...I don't really think the vast majority window user are using windows because they like it No, they're not, they're using it because they don't know any better, they don't know there's anything else in the world.

BUT, that doesn't mean they aren't still stupid. I don't know HOW many times I've had to explain to (l)users at work how to click buttons on programs...

What I'm trying to say is, quite a large chunk of people in general seem to have some sort of massive stupidity complex. Most of them gravitate towards Windows for whatever reason, and that reason doesn't really matter. But when the core Linux programs start catering to them, then it's over.

Originally posted by redhat81
Doesn't an open source just make it easier to discover new holes? :rolleyes: Rather than explaining it all again, this time to you, I'll just point you here:

http://catb.org/~esr/writings/quake-cheats.html

The lessons learned from when Quake was open-sourced. Most particularly:

If Quake had been designed to be open-source from the beginning, the performance hack that makes see-around-corners possible could never have been considered -- and either the design wouldn't have depended on millisecond packet timing at all, or aim-bot recognition would have been built in to the server from the beginning. This teaches our most important lesson -- that open source is the key to security because it changes the behavior of developers.

bazoukas

07-18-2003, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by redhat81
Of course I do. They're interested in the integrity of their product (it brings them profit) so they're willing to spend a lot more to make a product that works.

I suppose every patent holder in the world has a "crazy conspiracy" to take over the world.

Ah yes IE a solid closed source application.
Word....ah an office that by it self is a security risk.
Games with 80+ MB worth of patches.

Just to name a few as an example.
Yep Quality assurance allright.

bazoukas

07-18-2003, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by yongbeng
while..ok...it could be true that some hardwares are not supported by linux..that's why it's linux..but, dunno how true it is..heard that mandrake 9.x works on quite a series of HWs..

btw....this thread is suppose to be something related to apache and IE...I'm amazed by the way it had became a debate on linux being compatible...strange..:confused:

Yeah you are correct. We derailed this thread.

And no I do not agree on making IE borwsers useless on Apache servers. The linux community is supposed to be the moral example.

So far nothing negative has been writen about the methods the Community uses. Why give it a bad name now?

yongbeng

07-18-2003, 02:47 AM

yah...true...if such method was really implemented..it would made me wonder if linux really belong to the open environment afterall.. the beauty of linux is being open to anyone, open to the source code...open to the standard...guess we don't have to monopolize...people would just realise how great this OS is and begin using it!

Riley

07-18-2003, 02:44 PM

I personally have never looked at any hardware compatability lists and I've never had hardware problems in linux and I've used Mandrake, Redhat, Slackware, and Gentoo. I have had hardware problems with Windows though. Using Winex I got some games to play in Linux that I had to spend a couple hours to get to work in Windows and these are new games too.

This thread was started with the intention and this all comes down to the intention of getting people to switch to Linux from Windows. I tried that fight for a long time and have won quite a few people, but I say to hell with them. If they know me, they know linux is out there and if they don't even want to try linux they can wallow in their own complacency.