Alternate OSes for a newbie [Archive]

drunkpenguin

06-22-2003, 02:56 AM

To the best of my knowledge. A newbie can try BSD easilly. It is a bit trickier to install and setup. Also configuration is done manually thourgh config files. So a BSD newbie needs to have patience as nothing is done in GUI. You can run X with BSD, but you need to login to a text console first. Then run startx. BSD from what I under stand is more stable, but I didn't notice any diffrence. Personally I prefer linux but BSD is just as good and neither is better. The real diffrence will be seen in hardware support. BSD is more of a server OS so it really doesn't have sound support nativly. This is my experience with FreeBSD 5.

On a side note, I was unable to run darwin (at least the version I got from apple) because only Intel chips are supported. I run an athlon so I was SOL.

IF you want to try BSD, go with FreeBSD. I found it to have the best documentation. The entier handbook is available on-line and is very detailed.

Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379

06-22-2003, 03:09 PM

Actually, all of the *BSDs have pretty good documentation in the form of on-line handbooks.

IMHO, FreeBSD is the easiest BSD to install. But, none of them are that hard to configure if you read the insrtuctions.

Also, there are GUI configuration tools, but I've never used them, as I feel it's better to hand-edit config files anyways. Also, you can boot into a GUI, just like any version of Linux. It just takes some config file editing, that's all.

I use FreeBSD daily as my desktop OS. It's stable, and it works. All of the BSDs make good servers, though. Even though you can run the other BSDs on the desktop, I prefer FreeBSD, as you are able to install extra packages during the install to begin setting up your desktop. Also, sound isn't that hard to set up, either. It is natively supported, but you have to recompile your kernel to get that support. You'll notice that things like GUI support and sound aren't immediately available. That's because most BSD users don't need sound or a GUI, as they do employ it on a server. But, that doesn't mean it can't hold its own against a Linux distro as a desktop system...

This post, and every other I make is from a FreeBSD box!

PhasterX

06-22-2003, 03:59 PM

What would you recommend as an everyday use desktop on a P3 500?

hyp_spec

06-22-2003, 04:24 PM

slackware 9 w/ Dropline 2.2.3 :-P

xulfralos

06-22-2003, 10:04 PM

BeOS

LinuxLuke

06-24-2003, 11:04 PM

FreeBSD, it's the ultimate OS, thanks to it I can actually understand the whole UNIX thing

Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379

06-24-2003, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by PhasterX
What would you recommend as an everyday use desktop on a P3 500?

To be honest, you can probably do everything you want to do in either FreeBSD or Linux. I mean, you'll probably end up using the same desktop suite and the same set of apps you'd use in Linux.

Not that I'd like to dissuade you from using FreeBSD, or any other BSD, or any other OS for that matter, but are you unsatisfied with Linux?

By all means, try FreeBSD. It has a different style of bootup configuration files, and there are a few things FreeBSD does differently. But, again, I just hope you won't be disappointed when you find that both Linux and FreeBSD stand on level ground in terms of usability.

But, that's just my $.02

sharth

06-29-2003, 08:34 PM

Ah, us debian people have to keep promoting ourselves....

debian/freebsd and debian/hurd

Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379

06-30-2003, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by sharth
Ah, us debian people have to keep promoting ourselves....

debian/freebsd and debian/hurd

If I could get a fully working Debian/FreeBSD install, I'd be in hog heaven. But, from what I see, the version isn't finished. Also, HURD is nowhere near usable. As of now, I don't even think it can read partitions bigger than 2GB...

tv-casualty

07-03-2003, 12:40 PM

if you're a newbie you don't want to mess around with "alternative" OSes. when you understand things a bit try out Plan9 (http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/).
darwin or OpenDarwin (http://www.opendarwin.org) are pretty picky about what hardware they want to run on so be careful there.

roamingnomad

07-03-2003, 05:34 PM

I know I saw it out there the other day...

FreeDOS!!!

(never tried it, probably never will)

Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379

07-05-2003, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by roamingnomad
I know I saw it out there the other day...

FreeDOS!!!

(never tried it, probably never will)

You're not missing anything, IMHO.

I actually ran the LiveCD available from the FreeDOS site. It did come with some neat utilities, like XOSL, a bootloader, but I never could get it working under FreeDOS. Which was odd, as it ran just fine under MS-DOS...

do_guh_new

07-10-2003, 04:42 AM

try QNX

bandwidth_pig

07-10-2003, 08:21 PM

FreeBSD is every bit as easy to setup in my opinion as any Linux Distro...except maybe mandrake. It's easier than Slack or Debian in my opinion. If I had to pick two OSs I would have to conlcude with Sharth. There is nothing better than Debian or FreeBSD. Slack is close. But not quite. Matter of fact, I am starting to really miss BSD. If I could find some good DVD burning software and something that would handle recent games (winex just isn't there in my opinion) I would erase windows off my other machine (one HP-UX box, one Debian box, one Solaris box, and one freaking XP machine) and load FreeBSD back on it. I miss my FreeBSD. :(

Matter of fact it's almost depressing. I think this everytime I see Zombix or Sharth because they are usually promoting FreeBSD. By god I just might ditch windows...again. I don't know if I can stand it anymore.

xulfralos

07-11-2003, 02:52 AM

dvd+rw-tools for FreeBSD (http://bsd.slashdot.org/bsd/03/06/16/1136231.shtml?tid=122&tid=185&tid=190)

xulfralos

07-11-2003, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by do_guh_new
try QNX Why would a newbie want to run QNX? I installed it once, said 'mmmkayyyy' and blew it away for something usable.

bandwidth_pig

07-11-2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by xulfralos
dvd+rw-tools for FreeBSD (http://bsd.slashdot.org/bsd/03/06/16/1136231.shtml?tid=122&tid=185&tid=190)

Uh oh. You had to tempt me huh? Ok. I'm almost sold. Not like it would take much :D

What about something similar to TMPGEnc? Does such a animal exist for FreeBSD? For games I guess I could just resort to the Xbox.

Stween

07-15-2003, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by xulfralos
BeOS

I agree 100%. BeOS is the nicest OS I've ever had the pleasure of using. If it could handle ACPI power management and my winmodem, I'd be using it just now.

It's been bought, and is being developed, by Yellow Tab (http://www.yellowtab.com/), and I'm tempted to put money up for it, and put it on another system other than my main one, purely because BeOS (now Zeta, under Yellow Tab) is so nice :)

CaptainPinko

07-21-2003, 01:18 AM

Lycoris is the nicest distro if not a little limited. its a nice way to ease into linux. also if you are a student you can get Solaris 9 for like $20 US, it comes with GNOME... more useful information on this topic will hopefully be found here soon http://justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107615

bandwidth_pig

07-23-2003, 08:55 PM

Ahhh....I just installed FreeBSD again. I must admit, I am amazed at how easy the install for FreeBSD truly is. Of course, I still have to learn how to recompile the kernel (my sound card isn't working yet) but in all honesty, I think that FreeBSD is very friendly for a install. I just love it. I might even start neglecting my Debian box :D

So, I have to get my sound card working (won't be tough...it's just a SB 16) and then I will work on DVD burning.

Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379

07-23-2003, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by tanna
I would install FreeBSD and try except that I just don't get how the partitioning makes sense, even though I read the installation guide. :rolleyes:

The two key concepts of FreeBSD's partitioning are slices and partitions.

Slices are BIOS primary partitions. In Linux, the first partition (slice in FreeBSD) on your primary master IDE hard drive would be /dev/hda1. In FreeBSD, it'd be /dev/ad0s1.

FreeBSD goes one step further than the BIOS partitions. They make partitions within the BIOS partition (again, slices in FreeBSD terminology). So, it's kind of like an extended DOS partition with logical partitions inside of it. Partitions are labelled by name, generally starting at a, running until z, but the c partition is reserved for system use. The first partition on your first slice in your Primary Master drive would normally be /dev/ad0s1a.

In Linux, you'd make a BIOS partition, and put a file system on it. In FreeBSD, you'd make a BIOS partition (but it's called a slice), and then you'd make a partition within the slice, which you'd then put a filesystem on and ultimately mount. In FreeBSD, even your swap is normally a partition inside of a FreeBSD slice.

Hopefully this makes sense, right? :confused: It was as clear as mud to me until I had to start partitioning new disks to add to my already running FreeBSD system...

Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379

07-23-2003, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by tanna
So it'd be I make a slice, and a slice is a very very primary partition, which has partitions inside, which I would have five of, /, /usr/, /var, /home, and swap, and that'd all be in the slice? But then if partitions would be labeled as /dev/ad0s1, then what would a slice be? or would a slice not be listed? like if I had a layout, it'd be my linux partition, my linux swap, and five partitions, and then there'd be a slice, but extended, so it's space would be the same as all the partitions of FreeBSD added together, would be the slice. am I getting it?

Good question. But, I think you're confusing partitions and slices, an easy thing to do.

You would have all of your partitions inside of a slice. The slice itself would be /dev/ad0s1. The partitions inside it would be /dev/ad0s1a through /dev/ad0s1f, again leaving out the c partition as it's reserved. Here's an illustration. Say you have five partitions, /, swap, /usr, /var, and /home:

Partitions inside of a Slice

/dev/ad0s1 First slice in a Primary Master IDE drive.
|
|
|ad0s1a /
|
|ad0s1b swap
|
|ad0s1c reserved (type UNUSED)
|
|ad0s1d /usr
|
|ad0s1e /var
|
|ad0s1f /home

As you will note, the partitions are designated by letters a-f, inside of slice /dev/ad0s1. When you're determining how big you want your partitions to be, you do need to remember that the FreeBSD slice will need to be big enough to encompass all of the partitions, including swap. You can, though, use partitions from more than one slice.

I should explain about the c partition being unused. When you reference the c partition, you are referring to the whole partition. So, the real name of /dev/ad0s1 is /dev/ad0s1c. But, that's not what you need to remember about that-- just don't use the c partition, and you'll be okay.

Feel free to ask any more questions-- I'm enjoying this! :D

Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379

07-23-2003, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by tanna
ah, didn't understand that the partitions within the slice would be labeled by adding a letter on them.
Now, let's say, I go startup the install, then it leads to fdisk eventually. I chose let's say, free space, unallocated. say around 10GB. Then I'd do C to create a slice, then a dialog pops up aksing for the space, now a little fdisk install confusion here, I say how much space I want from that free space, which is 10GB, it'll say 10000MB, and I enter it, and it's set, right? Then I go into disklabel, and I start setting the space for each 'partition' such as /, /home, /usr, /var, and swap, but would I need to make a c partition? will it ask that? or c is just the alias of the whole thing, and it will be listed automatically after I have made the five?

Again, very good questions.

You would tell it 10000M, or you could tell it how many 512kbyte blocks you want it. I prefer MB, as that's what I'm most comfortable with. If you ever do it manually, though, you'll need to learn block sizes.

The c partition is created by the disklabel program during the install. But, disklabel will not even show you there is a c partition during install, because they assume you don't want to fool with it. And, that's a safe assumption, IMHO. The labelling program that the FreeBSD installer uses is good for new and experienced FreeBSD users alike, as it does "hold your hand" just enough to get you going.

Heh, another bit I should explain. fdisk is the tool that makes slices, disklabel makes the partitions. Since a FreeBSD slice is just a BIOS partition, information regarding the slice's partition ID and its physical boundaries are kept in the drive's partition table. The information regarding the partitions in a slice is kept in the slice's label, which I guess is a file akin to a partition table, but it's within a slice. That's where the name disklabel comes from.

Artimus

07-24-2003, 07:43 PM

Even if you make a /home partition, FreeBSD still has /home point to /usr/home (It's somewhere under usr)

I just deleted the link and moved it back where it belongs ^_^

bandwidth_pig

07-24-2003, 07:45 PM

/home is symlinked to /usr/home...so yes. You would keep user files there under the symlink I believe (somebody feel free to correct me if I am wrong). When I go into my /home/usrname directory, I do have actual files there that are not symlinked anywhere, so that would suggest that is where they really are. Ahhh...now I am not so sure. I can see why this is a question. Just for fun I decided to go to /usr/home/username and I have the exact same files and they do not show a symlink either. So I am confused as well. :rolleyes:

As far as partitions and slices go, it doesn't get any easier. I created a single partition of 60 Gigs. I then let FreeBSD carve out the slices automatically (even though I run a dual boot...doesn't matter since it is just carving up the partition into slices). The auto option is great. It configured my swap in purportion to my RAM...etc. It has been over a year since I used FreeBSD, so this was fine with me. If I need to go back later and make adjustments, I can. Give it a whirl Tanna! I think you'll like it! My X install went flawlessly (which isn't always the case) and I even have a Radeon card! So easy. Now I just have to refresh my memory on all things BSD. But that was really the whole point.

CaptainPinko

07-24-2003, 09:49 PM

do the fact that BSD uses slices mean that you can resize partitions on the fly? (since as far as the hardrive is concerned its all in one "partition"?)

xulfralos

07-25-2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by Artimus
I just deleted the link and moved it back where it belongs ^_^ Heh. Just because linux uses /home doesn't mean that's where it 'belongs'. If you're going to learn the BSD way, don't change the filesystem structure, but figure out WHY it's done that way.

bandwidth_pig

07-25-2003, 10:21 AM

The BSD way is quite a bit different from what I can see. And I really like the way of compiling the linux kernel VS the BSD kernel. I haven't had any luck with the BSD kernel yet. Of course, that is due to user error. But I would sure like to get my sound card and DVD-R drive working. But I haven't really researched it yet. I'm just suprised how different the two are (Linux and FreeBSD).

xulfralos

07-26-2003, 06:13 AM

Once you successfully compile a kernel in FreeBSD, you'll see how much simpler and easier it is than in linux. Basically, it goes like this:

Add to /etc/make.conf:

# options for building/installing makeworld
CFLAGS= -O -pipe
NOPROFILE= true
USA_RESIDENT= yes

# options for compiling/installing a kernel
KERNCONF= NEWKERNEL

Copy /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/GENERIC to
/usr/src/sys/i386/conf/NEWKERNEL

Edit /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/NEWKERNEL and add/remove/comment out options and devices as necessary.

Now, to build and install the kernel with one command:

# cd /usr/src && make buildkernel && make installkernel
# reboot

Too easy.

viperlin

07-26-2003, 06:42 AM

i think linux would be easyer:
set CPU flags in /etc/make.conf
go to /usr/src/linux
run make menuconfig and configure it
run "make dep && make clean bzImage modules modules_install"
run "cp /usr/src/linux/arch/i386/boot/bzImage /boot"
reboot

done.

bandwidth_pig

07-26-2003, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by xulfralos
Once you successfully compile a kernel in FreeBSD, you'll see how much simpler and easier it is than in linux. Basically, it goes like this:

Add to /etc/make.conf:

# options for building/installing makeworld
CFLAGS= -O -pipe
NOPROFILE= true
USA_RESIDENT= yes

# options for compiling/installing a kernel
KERNCONF= NEWKERNEL

Copy /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/GENERIC to
/usr/src/sys/i386/conf/NEWKERNEL

Edit /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/NEWKERNEL and add/remove/comment out options and devices as necessary.

Now, to build and install the kernel with one command:

# cd /usr/src && make buildkernel && make installkernel
# reboot

Too easy.

True. It's just a matter of learning. I was able to compile a kernel yesterday, but when I tried to boot up it wouldn't boot. Not knowing, I did a re-install. I didn't know I could simply unload the kernel by stopping the boot process. But I'm not complaining. I wanted a new adventure and I have it.

bandwidth_pig

07-26-2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by tanna
I don't thinkI want to install FreeBSD; I don't think I know enough about my hardware as its asking for. :\

Don't let this talk scare you off. Xulfalos is right in that once you start getting the feel of the "FreeBSD way" it's not that tough at all. You can get it up and running knowing almost nothing about your hardware. Of course, at some stage, you will want to optimize and will want to rebuild the kernel (just as with Linux). I think the only reason I am having problems is:

1. First time.
2. Never compiled a kernel of any kind on this machine, so I am not that familar with the hardware.

The process is simple, and one should expect to make a few mistakes. I did the first time I compiled a Linux kernel. It didn't boot the first time either. Now I can compile it in my sleep. Ok not in my sleep. But in about 10 minutes.

I ran FreeBSD prior to running Debian (old machine that is now dead). I loved it. I thought the ports systems was the coolest thing ever. I never got into the guts of the thing. But I had a simple install and would have never walked away from it had I not had that Debian itch...just had to do it. Now I will run:

1. Debain (machine 1)
2. FreeBSd (machine 2)
2. Windows XP for games (machine 2...dual boot with FreeBSD)
3. Solaris (machine 3)
4. HP-UX (machine 4 once I get past the damn synch on green issue with my monitor)

Just hate to seem people back away from FreeBSD since it is so great. I would say it is every bit as good as Debian...if not better.

bandwidth_pig

07-26-2003, 10:16 AM

viperlin

07-26-2003, 10:49 AM

i use gentoo and accouding to the list of how to do it on FreeBSD it's pretty much the same.
i would try FreeBSD but VMware's killing my ethernet card when it starts up. will try just to see as soon as i can, 1st on agenda is try gentoo with 2.6 linux kernel :-D

xulfralos

07-26-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by viperlin
i think linux would be easyer:
set CPU flags in /etc/make.conf
go to /usr/src/linux
run make menuconfig and configure it
run "make dep && make clean bzImage modules modules_install"
run "cp /usr/src/linux/arch/i386/boot/bzImage /boot"
reboot

done. Then you haven't tried it. Menuconfig alone makes it much more cumbersome. FreeBSD even replaces your old kernel with the new one automatically (renames it actually).

If you really wanted to make it short:

# vi /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/GENERIC
# cd /usr/src && make buildkernel KERNCONF=GENERIC && make installkernel KERNCONF=GENERIC && reboot

xulfralos

07-26-2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by bandwidth_pig
I was able to compile a kernel yesterday, but when I tried to boot up it wouldn't boot.You can always boot 'kernel.old' (the original kernel, or the last one used if you've compiled before) if the new one doesn't boot.

Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379

07-26-2003, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by CaptainPinko
do the fact that BSD uses slices mean that you can resize partitions on the fly? (since as far as the hardrive is concerned its all in one "partition"?)

Nope.

Once you make the partitions within the slice, they cannot be changed AFAIK. There may be some type of growfs-type tool out there that I'm not aware of, though. But, as a general practice, I try to plan out my space allocation ahead of time to anticipate future spatial concerns.

chucksaysword2

07-26-2003, 10:15 PM

Did I miss something...when did this become a FreeBSD thread? :D

Well if you want to try some really alternative OSes I suggest that you head over to www.osnews.com and surf around. SkyOS and TriangleOS caught my attention..although I'm not really sure if they're in a usable state.

carrja99

07-30-2003, 11:40 PM

I'm suprised no one mentioned BeOS...

BeOS is super easy to install. Heck, they even have it where you can install it from windows.

Alex Cavnar, aka alc6379

07-31-2003, 12:03 AM

BeOS is pretty nice.

It was mentioned before! :p

I still have my BeOS 4.5 install CD. I paid $3 US for it! :D

Sadly, it doesn't support my video hardware...

CaptainPinko

07-31-2003, 08:40 PM

anyone play with those other oses (ie non-*nix) ike pegasos or meunet or skyos and so on?

myshkin

07-31-2003, 09:06 PM

have you tried winxp? :)

xulfralos

07-31-2003, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by carrja99
I'm suprised no one mentioned BeOS...Ummm... Apparently, you're not paying attention, as I mentioned BeOS on the first page of this thread.

CaptainPinko

08-01-2003, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by tanna
has anyone played with vms?

nope! but i've read about. very interesting.p there is also jnode a javawritten os free on sourceforge

ljfong

08-02-2003, 05:49 AM

As far as I know, growfs is only available in FreeBSD 5.0 and above but I wouldn't recommend someone new to be playing with 5.0 since the kernel still has a lot of debugging code turned on and people have reported slowdown in performance because of it. Give 4.8 a try if you really want to try FreeBSD.

Having use FreeBSD at home for desktop use for the last two years, there are a couple gotchas for newbie :
- Although the hardware support is very good, but compared to Linux in general, Linux hardware support is a little better especially when it comes to absolutely cutting edge technology like coolest sound card, video card, etc.
- Some popular applications like Flash, Quicktime, etc are never released natively for FreeBSD and they have to be run in Linux compatibility mode and using workarounds.

Personally, I would suggest going with Linux if you want your machine to function as ultimate entertainment machine while you can learn Unix along the way, but other than that, go ahead with FreeBSD, you won't regret it.