How does Microsoft spy on the end user?

[slackware]

Hey,

No this thread is not to flame Microsoft or to praise it. I've always wondered what exactly it is that Microsoft does to "spy" on its users. Currently the only three things I know of is:
1 - Digital Rights Management.
2 - Online update detecting what software is installed on the machine (which is what I've heard but can't prove they do)
3 - How it stores visited urls (as stated on "f microsoft.com")

I've read on a few websites that have stated Windows 2000 and XP have over 10 different ways to keep tabs or to track the end user. I don't have the exact links at the moment but I'm sure you guys have seen the exact or similar urls as well.

What bothers me is the fact that no one has made a list on a website showing exactly how they do "spy" and what could be done to prevent it. (If they have I havent seen it) I've just read many times about the evil ways of Microsoft yet rarely see concrete evidence to back up the statements.

Note that I have used Linux and FreeBSD only for the last 4 years on my main computers so I havent been keeping up with world of Microsoft. So if you guys know of any good websites or information about this feel free to post it here. I'd appreciate it.

[Raoul_Duke]

In XP there is supposed to be at least 10 different channels of communication between the local box and microsoft servers.........of course no-one knows what they're for but the XP firewall won't stop them.

I would find a link but i've just spilt coffee on myself.....:eek:

[simcon]

I run XP but don't use the Windows Update feature because it doesn't like my serial number - says it's invalid ;) Anyway I use ZoneAlarm personal firewall and it alerts me when a program wants to access the net and I have to allow it access either just the once or for always. I have noticed that when I use Windows Explorer (the file manager not IE) it often tries to access the net when I am doing stuff like moving or opening files etc. I always prevent it from doing so. If you want to keep an eye on what's accessing the net I suggest you get ZoneAlarm as it's very good and don't use the MS XP firewall. I only use XP for some games and Macromedia products else I use Mandrake Linux anyway.

[mrBen]

I remember a famous example of some filling out information and checked the 'Do not send me faxes' checkbox in the form, and when he went to continue he was told that he must 'Enter his fax number in order to not recieve faxes' :)

Windows Media Player also has some spyware built-in, apparently.

[slackware]

Thanks for the replies. I had forgot about Windows Media Player keeping track of played files. Does the spying only work thru IE when browsing the net or will it send information when using FireBird or other browsers as well? Do you guys think a third party firewall such as Zone Alarm or Sygate fully stops Microsoft from prying into what you do while online?

[Kai99]

Do a search on your local hard drive and watch your modem light start blinking...I am not joking :(

When you play files in MS Media Player it sends a list of your files to Microsoft. MS says it is only for gathering statistical information to better support their customers and will never be shared with anyone.


You couldn't pay me enough to run a MS product.

Kai

[mrBen]

Originally posted by slackware
Thanks for the replies. I had forgot about Windows Media Player keeping track of played files. Does the spying only work thru IE when browsing the net or will it send information when using FireBird or other browsers as well? Do you guys think a third party firewall such as Zone Alarm or Sygate fully stops Microsoft from prying into what you do while online?

Depends if the firewall software if configured to monitor outgoing connections 'n' stuff.

The surefire way of catching them would be to setup a seperate firewall (like putting smoothwall on an old 486) and block all ports other than the ones you know you need.

[slackware]

Imagine the world of computing if Windows was our only choice of an operating system. I guess GNU/Linux (the Slackware distro mostly) has really spoiled me. Luckily, we have hard working dedicated coders working hard each, striving to make Linux what it is today and will become in the near future.

I wish I could find a site where someone has really dug deep into what goes on behind the scenes in Windows. Then again I doubt it would be fully possible without access to the source code. Again, thanks for the replies.

[simcon]

Do a search on your local hard drive and watch your modem light start blinking...I am not jokingI just tested this and true enough when I open explorer.exe and try to search my drive C: ZoneAlarm prompts me that explorer.exe is trying to access the internet. I select 'don't allow it' and that stops it. I too have prevented wmplayer.exe from accessing the net.

[AlexPlank]

Originally posted by Raoul_Duke
In XP there is supposed to be at least 10 different channels of communication between the local box and microsoft servers.........of course no-one knows what they're for but the XP firewall won't stop them.

I would find a link but i've just spilt coffee on myself.....:eek:

THe XP firewall doesnt stop outgoing stuff at all. It sucks.

[Raoul_Duke]

I can happily say that XP has never touched the hardware in my house :)

[Parcival]

Welcome to the Palladium, Longhorn, NGSCB (http://www.justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100594) thread here in dev/random.

[El_Cu_Guy]

Activation
Among other things collects hardware information

Passport
Information passes through centralized servers. Can also be used for marketing.


Error Reporting
Sends your IP address (could be used to identify you), digital product ID, (used to identify your license (or determine if you're using pirated software?)), and in some cases, your documents.

Search Companion
Local searches pass through http://sa.windows.com, collects files from site but does not send info when searching locally, LAN or intranet.
Internet searches record your IP address, the text of your Internet search query, grammatical information about the query, the list of tasks which the Search Companion Web service recommends, and any tasks you select from the recommendation list.

Media Player
Sends title of every DVD and player ID to MS. Automatic update downloads.

Windows Update (Auto)
New Service Pack EULA contains section giving MS the permission to access your machine at regular intervals to check "software information" (the language is vague and may include data). Federal regulations for financial institutions do not allow this meaning that banks may inadvertantley be breaking the law.

Microsoft whitepaper (http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/maintain/XPManaged/00_Abstr.asp) concerning 11 different components which "phone home".

[deanrantala]

ever notice how those fresh mp3's you just downloaded already have their album art displayed in media player?

Anyway, heres a few tips.

right click "my computer" select prorerties. Under the tab "automatic updates, select "disable automatic updates" Then under the "advanced" tab, click error reporting. The box that comes up is pretty self explainitory. Disable the error reporting, and select "ok".

Under media player, there are numerous options for automaticaly downloading codecs, updating album info, obtaining album art, etc, etc. Disable it all if you wish.

If you also run office xp, there are also sevral similar features that you can disable.

Or the easy way is to re-format that NT partition as a linux native and use if for storing all your mp3's:D

[mr orion77]

i use the xp anti-spy from nonags.com it disables loads of junk like messenger (uninstalls too) and disables all upadate and error functions. dont take this as kosha it may even be a load of tosh.

well i need win to do my design work with:( so ive no choice (vmware 2 slooooow).

[janet loves bill]

there is/was no way M$ could ever spy on me........I had/have M$.com and windowsupdate sites in the IE Restricted zone, that way their Active X controls are effectively disabled........he he haw

[AlexPlank]

Originally posted by janet loves bill
there is/was no way M$ could ever spy on me........I had/have M$.com and windowsupdate sites in the IE Restricted zone, that way their Active X controls are effectively disabled........he he haw

You do realize that windows update isnt the only way they can spy. If you look at all those services in the service control panel you will realize that microsoft has many paths to your data. And who knows what other backdoors are built in that you dont know about? I think you have a false sense of security.

[spiderbaby1958]

I wonder why Microsoft would wnat access to my data in the first place? Can't Bill Gates afford his own porno?

Three words: Don't trust Microsoft! The only way you can be sure that Microsoft isn't spying on you is not to run anything at all from Microsoft. I'm not saying that they are. I'm saying that the Windows code is a secret, no one knows what's in it, and we're talking about a company with a pretty solid track record of ruthlessness, dishonesty, greed and megalomaniacal *****ion. I've heard a lot of ideas about Palladium that sound like paranoid conspiracy theories, but when it comes to Microsoft, anything's possible. The fact is, I don't have to believe every scary story I ever heard about Microsoft to know that I don't need to buy so much as a mousepad from these folks in the future. I am very close to getting debian up and running, and I believe that I should be free of all Windows on all my computers by Jan 2004.

:D

[afterthefall]

Originally posted by slackware
I wish I could find a site where someone has really dug deep into what goes on behind the scenes in Windows. Then again I doubt it would be fully possible without access to the source code. Again, thanks for the replies.

You could always check out www.****microsoft.com (http://www.****microsoft.com) and www.kmfms.com (http://www.kmfms.com).

- atf

PS - it may be a bit late in post, but hell...at least the sites are funny.

EDIT: it appears that the f-word in the first URL has been censored, so I implore you to use your imagination before blindly following the above linkes. Otherwise, have fun. :o)

[drunkpenguin]

I was an avid windoze user up until a tear ago when my friend steve showed me linux. Why all this spyware now explains why my net connection must be slow on a clean install of windoze. Thank you steve for getting me to switch to hard core linux.

Why if it wasn't for linux, I would have taken a sledge hammer to my computer by now. Why I have a complished more in the three weeks that I have owned a copy of SuSE 8.2 pro for the $80 I paid at Best Buy, then the 5 years I have paid to use windows software.

So can we make a cult and make the penguin our idol, and Linus the great one? And why can't the goverment rm -rf /* bill gates and m$ already?

[proffy]

Originally posted by slackware
Thanks for the replies. I had forgot about Windows Media Player keeping track of played files.
You can turn all that off you know. It's no different than a browser having a history, or caching the files you look at, or your darn xterm having a command history. It's really not a big deal.

I mean, have you actually looked into this? Almost all media players can download album art/lyrics. Run a simple packet sniffer such as etheal and look at what is going over the wire.

Microsoft from prying into what you do while online? I guess I'm not sure what you are all upset about. What is it that you think Microsoft is doing to you? I mean, do you think they've hired 20,000 employees at $50,000 a year to spy on all the hunders of windows users out there, what could they possibly gain from all this?

[proffy]

Originally posted by El_Cu_Guy
Among other things collects hardware information
I always get a kick out of the users here that complain that MS knows what hardware they are using - Then in there .sig file they have something that resembles:

XP 2400+
Epox 8RDA+
GeForce 4 Ti 4200
512 megs of DDR 266 RAM
80 gig Seagate HD

:rolleyes:

Error Reporting
Sends your IP address (could be used to identify you), digital product ID, (used to identify your license (or determine if you're using pirated software?)), and in some cases, your documents.
Huh? Send your IP address? It doesn't matter if it did or didn't send you IP address because you could tell what IP it came from anyway. Heck, I log people's IPs and Browsers in my Web Server logs, Am I "Teh Eval?" Ummm, and explain how a small memory dump file can be used to identify your documents. Do you even know what MS does with dump files?

Search Companion
Local searches pass through http://sa.windows.com, collects files from site but does not send info when searching locally, LAN or intranet.
I remember when Netscape 6 came out and it was discovered that using the integrated search sent your request to netscape.com first, before routing it to Google. No one seemed to care.

Media Player
Sends title of every DVD and player ID to MS. Automatic update downloads.
When setting up WMP 9 it asks you if you'd like to do this or not, that's hardly spying.

Windows Update (Auto)
New Service Pack EULA contains section giving MS the permission to access your machine at regular intervals to check "software information"
How else is the software update software supposed to work? This is no different than any other update software. Is you don't like it, turn it off.

[proffy]

Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I'm not saying that they are. I'm saying that the Windows code is a secret, no one knows what's in it,
It's called closed source and almost every software company works this way. OMG! I've never seen the code to Photoshop! They may be spying on me!!!

and we're talking about a company with a pretty solid track record of ruthlessness, dishonesty, greed and megalomaniacal *****ion.
It's called capitalism. Do you honestly think all other companies in the US DON'T do this?

I've heard a lot of ideas about Palladium that sound like paranoid conspiracy theories, but when it comes to Microsoft, anything's possible.
You honestly sound quite paranoid yourself. Do you even know how much info they is about you online? you phone number, addy, et... When you go to by your groceries and you have to give them that little "preferred club" card to get your discount, they are recording what YOU buy and selling it.

*sigh* I'm always so astounded at how people love to concentrate on MS and let all other companies activities go un-noticed.

Google invades your privacy (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,904096,00.asp?kc=PCTH102099TX1K0100488)

Netscape spys on users (http://thechannel.vnunet.com/News/1108575)

Comcast spys on users (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20020212/2356249_F.shtml)

KaZaA spys on users (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/tech/news/apr03/135100.asp)

TiVo spys on users (http://www.techtv.com/news/culture/story/0,24195,3334451,00.html)

[proffy]

Originally posted by afterthefall
[B]You could always check out www.****microsoft.com (http://www.****microsoft.com) and www.kmfms.com (http://www.kmfms.com).

And while you are at it, check BinLaden.com to find a completely unbiased view of the US foreign policy

:rolleyes:

If you want to know if MS is spying on you, try going to http://www.arstechnica.com and posting something in the NT mojo area. The level of cluelessness about Microsoft products at this site is unbelieveable.

Proffy

[RHLinuxNewbie]

Originally posted by proffy
*sigh* I'm always so astounded at how people love to concentrate on MS and let all other companies activities go un-noticed.

Google invades your privacy (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,904096,00.asp?kc=PCTH102099TX1K0100488)


Most of this stuff isn't that bad. As stated in the google artical:

Google collects a good deal of information about your query. It records not only what you searched for (when you activate the advanced Toolbar features), but several other pieces of information as well, including the time of day, the type of browser you're running, the language your browser uses, and your IP address.


Most web servers can get this information anyway, it's not a huge breach in security. However, the MS EULA is. The fact that you are forced to agree with it to install such products as WMP9, is sad. Agreeing the company can manipulate files on your HDD is insane.

Originally posted by proffy
I guess I'm not sure what you are all upset about. What is it that you think Microsoft is doing to you? I mean, do you think they've hired 20,000 employees at $50,000 a year to spy on all the hunders of windows users out there, what could they possibly gain from all this?
Who said anything about hiring people to shift through the information? They can easily setup a filter for one of their servers, or to take a load off, put it in the client code. Agreeing to their EULA, WMP9 (although I doubt MS would do this), could search your files in secret, filter them through code they may have inserted, and if it happens to be a match (say an illegal copy of Office), delete it. Now that wouldn't be so bad, deleting illegal software, but assume something happened during the install, or somehow the filter failed, and it starts deleting files such as work documents.. thats what these people are talking about. They don't want MS going through your personal files, deleting them at random.. monitored by their servers or not.

[slackware]

Hey,

Thanks for the links everyone. Proffy I'm not worried about Microsoft prying into what I do because I do not own or use their software in any way (except when repairing a friend or family memebers pc). I was just curious as to how they go about "keeping tabs" (or whatever one would want to call it) on their users.
Luckily we have great alternative oses to choose from. While some Linux distros and other oses are great its disappointing to see a company like Microsoft do as they do. I think they have the money and talented coders to create a good os yet they fail to do so. I'm sure the reasons somehow involve greed, power, and all the other negative crap in the corp world. :D

[proffy]

Most of this stuff isn't that bad. As stated in the google artical:
The funny thing is, if MS owned Google and logged people's searches, you'd be all over them for it. How is this any different than SMP keeping a log of what album's you've listened too?
However, the MS EULA is. The fact that you are forced to agree with it to install such products as WMP9, is sad. Agreeing the company can manipulate files on your HDD is insane.
Microsoft is doing anything with your HD. Where are you getting this? I assume you are talking about the line in the EULA:

"You acknowledge and agree that Microsoft may automatically check the version of the OS Product and/or its components that you are utilizing and may provide upgrades or fixes to the OS Product that will be automatically downloaded to your computer,"

That's to make windows update legal my friend. Windows Update can be set to download updates to your computer, but the users still needs to install them. It's not like Microsoft is putting Trojans are your PC. Don't believe me?

http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=12009443&m=8240904925

Honestly, I can understand that you are concerned, but do a least a bit of research before you start spreading FUD about a company. Linux is about CHOICE. But in order to give someone a choice, you have to feed them information, not propaganda.

Who said anything about hiring people to shift through the information? They can easily setup a filter for one of their servers, or to take a load off, put it in the client code.
Um, do you know what Microsoft has to do to read a "core dump" from a application crash? Please explain to me how setting up a simple filter on microsoft.com will allow MS to read and log tons of info from memory dumps.

Agreeing to their EULA, WMP9 (although I doubt MS would do this), could search your files in secret, filter them through code they may have inserted, and if it happens to be a match (say an illegal copy of Office), delete it. Now that wouldn't be so bad, deleting illegal software, but assume something happened during the install, or somehow the filter failed, and it starts deleting files such as work documents.. thats what these people are talking about. They don't want MS going through your personal files, deleting them at random.. monitored by their servers or not.

Do you honestly think that Microsoft is going to be deleting software on peoples computers? Are you insane? Do you have any idea how paranoid you sound?

Give me a break. :rolleyes:

Proffy

[proffy]

Originally posted by slackware
Thanks for the links everyone. Proffy I'm not worried about Microsoft prying into what I do because I do not own or use their software in any way (except when repairing a friend or family memebers pc). I was just curious as to how they go about "keeping tabs" (or whatever one would want to call it) on their users.
Microsoft isn't keeping tabs on anyone. I've yet to see anyone post any credible article about it.

If you want to worry about someone keeping tabs on you, next time you make a phone call think about the fact that it's getting logged on one of the phone companies servers...next time to buy something with that credit card it's getting recorded...next time you register your car with the state... next time you fill out your taxes... etc...

There are bigger things to worry about.

-Proffy

[afterthefall]

Originally posted by proffy
That's to make windows update legal my friend. Windows Update can be set to download updates to your computer, but the users still needs to install them. It's not like Microsoft is putting Trojans are your PC. Don't believe me?

I think the cirucumstance would be different if Windows Update were the ONLY way that products were altered (read as "automatically updated" if you like) remotely by Microsoft. Unfortunately, there are at least 8 ways that this process occurs - one for each major deparment/development for the Windows brand operating system. By this, I mean that your Window Media Player (tm) is not updated in a similar manner as your MSN Instant Messenger (tm).

One of the major goals of Windows XP, other than to financially grip everyone by the motherboard, is to consolidate the update process - which I believe is now down to 2 different ways. Regardless of how it is done, the practice is essentially no different than if I set up my Gentoo system to do a daily 'emerge sync' followed by an "emerge -u world'. Tailor this to whatever system you prefer, and you can certainly achieve the same results. The difference is that I have the power to choose when, where, why and how this is done.

The difficulty that most people have with such practices by Microsoft has to do with Microsoft's unethical and predatory business practices. If you doubt this statement, think back to only a few years ago to the "integration" of Internet Explorer (or Exploder, as it was commonly known as at the time) into the operating system as a way of force-feeding an inferior product to the masses. Of course, IE has become the defacto standard since then, as well as becoming a superior browser (debateable) to the competition. But hell, if I had a 6 billion USD budget for R&D alone, I think I could compile a big enough team of monkeys to make this happen.

If a company is willing to act in this manner in regards to their competition, how are they to treat their own users? We're not talking about a mom and pop establishment, but a MASSIVE Corporation. We're talking about a company that has asked school districts and government agencies to stop what they were doing and account for EVERY copy of Microsoft Software so that they can be assured that everything was properly licensed and they are getting every imaginable cent that they feel they are owed.

As an example, I work in a university computer lab that holds 200 pcs in one building, another 200 in another building, plus 100 or so odd computers in a smaller satellite lab. There are many similar labs in the school, and included with faculty, staff, administrative, as well as major networking computers under the university's umbrella, I'd say that the total number of PCs on campus (excluding student owned machines) nears 15,000. If each one of these machines only has 5 (a very low number) individually licensed products (say Office, Developer Studio, Access, Frontpage, or any number of other products), this brings the total license count to 75,000.

How much manpower would it take to verify and account for every piece of licensed Microsoft software. I don't know exactly, but it would be a hell of a lot. It would require that a major reallocation of resources be diverted from normal operation, which would in turn strain, if not completely interrupt, normal operation. Why would a corporation such as Microsoft do such a thing? Greed. There is no other plausible answer, and if you think there is, does a company with a budget as large as Microsoft's really have to worry about going under? I think not.

And you can believe me when I say that any alterations done to your computer by Microsoft, whether they be updating software, planting trojans, or whatever other good/evil purpose it is done for, it is not done for YOUR benefit.

</rant>

- atf

[tzimsce]

Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I'm saying that the Windows code is a secret, no one knows what's in it

:D

I think it's safe to say that you wouldn't understand the code if you saw it. I get so sick of these anti-Microsoft trolls that try to justify their geekness -- and IGNORANCE -- by saying that Microsoft keeps their code secret. By the way I use Debian and Win98SE.

[tzimsce]

Originally posted by drunkpenguin
I was an avid windoze user up until a tear ago when my friend steve showed me linux. Why all this spyware now explains why my net connection must be slow on a clean install of windoze. Thank you steve for getting me to switch to hard core linux.

Why if it wasn't for linux, I would have taken a sledge hammer to my computer by now. Why I have a complished more in the three weeks that I have owned a copy of SuSE 8.2 pro for the $80 I paid at Best Buy, then the 5 years I have paid to use windows software.

So can we make a cult and make the penguin our idol, and Linus the great one? And why can't the goverment rm -rf /* bill gates and m$ already?

Pu-leez. Gag me with a spoon. I've been using Linux for a year or so and Windows for years. I hardly believe that you accomplished more with Linux in three weeks than you did with Windows in five years. It takes quite a while just to learn basic Linux commands and navigation, so take the baloney elsewhere.

[tzimsce]

Originally posted by proffy
It's called closed source and almost every software company works this way. OMG! I've never seen the code to Photoshop! They may be spying on me!!!


It's called capitalism. Do you honestly think all other companies in the US DON'T do this?


You honestly sound quite paranoid yourself. Do you even know how much info they is about you online? you phone number, addy, et... When you go to by your groceries and you have to give them that little "preferred club" card to get your discount, they are recording what YOU buy and selling it.

*sigh* I'm always so astounded at how people love to concentrate on MS and let all other companies activities go un-noticed.

Google invades your privacy (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,904096,00.asp?kc=PCTH102099TX1K0100488)

Netscape spys on users (http://thechannel.vnunet.com/News/1108575)

Comcast spys on users (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20020212/2356249_F.shtml)

KaZaA spys on users (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/tech/news/apr03/135100.asp)

TiVo spys on users (http://www.techtv.com/news/culture/story/0,24195,3334451,00.html)

I appreciate knowing there are other folks on here who love Linux but also understand Information Technology in general. Thank you.

[tzimsce]

Originally posted by proffy

You honestly sound quite paranoid yourself. Do you even know how much info they is about you online? you phone number, addy, et... When you go to by your groceries and you have to give them that little "preferred club" card to get your discount, they are recording what YOU buy and selling it.


And, the thing is that though it is annoying (to me anyway) when the grocery clerk asks me for my "preferred customer" card, since I just want to pay my money and get out of the store, the information they are collecting about my grocery buying habits is not going to cause me any sort of harm. In fact, it might cause the store to stock more things that "I" like. People need to educate themselves on the difference between "annoying information collecting" and "spying".

[RedMap]

I didn't see it linked already so...

this document by Michael Jennings is of interest to this discussion:
http://www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft.htm

enjoy the read!

[Parcival]

@ tzimsce:

I get so sick of these anti-Microsoft trolls that try to justify their geekness -- and IGNORANCE -- by saying that Microsoft keeps their code secret.

If the code is not secret, why isn't it floating all through the internet? It somehow makes sense to keep it minimally confidential when you wanna make sure you alone should make cash with it, doesn't it?

Plus, if this comment is allowed, I don't think you'll add much input to the discussion if you call everyone ignorant who's anti-Microsoft. Like most of the time in life the truth probably lies between the two extremes.

[proffy]

Originally posted by Parcival
If the code is not secret, why isn't it floating all through the internet? It somehow makes sense to keep it minimally confidential when you wanna make sure you alone should make cash with it, doesn't it?
He isn't arguing that the code isn't secret. He is expressing his anger over people who criticize Microsoft for keeping their source closed. There is nothing wrong with closed source, that's how most software is written my friend. We can't look at the code for Apple's iTunes, does that make Apple an evil company? And hey, I can't look at the recipe for the herbs and spices in KFC chicken, does that make KFC an evil company?

c'mon, it's called capitalism. If you don't like it, there are plenty of communist countries who would love to take you in.

Proffy

[proffy]

Originally posted by afterthefall I think the cirucumstance would be different if Windows Update were the ONLY way that products were altered (read as "automatically updated" if you like) remotely by Microsoft. Unfortunately, there are at least 8 ways that this process occurs - one for each major deparment/development for the Windows brand operating system. By this, I mean that your Window Media Player (tm) is not updated in a similar manner as your MSN Instant Messenger (tm).
What does this have to do with anything? 8 ways to do what? Update your computer? What does this have to do with the "MS is spying on me!" myth?

One of the major goals of Windows XP, other than to financially grip everyone by the motherboard, is to consolidate the update process - which I believe is now down to 2 different ways. Regardless of how it is done, the practice is essentially no different than if I set up my Gentoo system to do a daily 'emerge sync' followed by an "emerge -u world'. ...... The difference is that I have the power to choose when, where, why and how this is done. Ummmm.... I don't understand, are you saying that users can't choose when and where to update their XP boxen? Users can turn off, automatic update you know and then simply navigate to windowsupdate and manually select the updates you want.

-Proffy

[proffy]

posted by afterthefall
As an example, I work in a university computer lab ...... I'd say that the total number of PCs on campus (excluding student owned machines) nears 15,000. If each one of these machines only has 5 (a very low number) individually licensed products (say Office, Developer Studio, Access, Frontpage, or any number of other products), this brings the total license count to 75,000.

How much manpower would it take to verify and account for every piece of licensed Microsoft software. I don't know exactly, but it would be a hell of a lot. It would require that a major reallocation of resources be diverted from normal operation, which would in turn strain, if not completely interrupt, normal operation. Why would a corporation such as Microsoft do such a thing? Greed. There is no other plausible answer

This has got to be one of th silliest arguments I've ever read. Ya, you gotta have a license to run licensed software, otherwise it's friggin illegal dude. Please tell me how this is different from most software companies? Oracle, Novell, etc? You have to pay for their software my friend, it's called capitalism!

Let's look how silly your argument can become if we apply it to different situations: Changed words are in italics:
-------------------------------------------------
As an example, I work in a university computer ... I'd say that the total number of people on campus nears 15,000. If each one of these makes $10,000 a year, that's $150,000,000 a year total.

How much manpower would it take to verify and account for every dollar given to Uncle Sam. I don't know exactly, but it would be a hell of a lot. It would require that a major reallocation of resources be diverted from normal operation, which would in turn strain, if not completely interrupt, normal operation. Why would a country's tax system such as the USA's do such a thing? Greed. There is no other plausible answer!!

USA & IRS ARE TEH EVAL!!!!!!
---------------------------------------------------
Proffy

[proffy]

posted by afterthefall
And you can believe me when I say that any alterations done to your computer by Microsoft,
Ummmmm... hello, what is Microsoft altering? exes? dlls?

whether they be updating software, planting trojans, or whatever other good/evil purpose it is done for, it is not done for YOUR benefit.
Please explain how updating software is not benificial to the users.

-Proffy

You know afterthfall "You don't have to be an Microsoft Bigot to like Linux."

[proffy]

Originally posted by Parcival
Plus, if this comment is allowed, I don't think you'll add much input to the discussion if you call everyone ignorant who's anti-Microsoft.
But wait, eveyone here is allow to call Microsoft "TEH EVAL". Why can't Parcival call Linux users who know next to nothing about Microsoft products, or general business practices of most companies ignorant? from what I can see on this board, most of these Linux zealots are ignorant.

Like most of the time in life the truth probably lies between the two extremes. This is often true. However, at this site, people only get the "M$ is teh suck!" extreme view. There needs to be another voice here.

Proffy

[Parcival]

He is expressing his anger over people who criticize Microsoft for keeping their source closed. There is nothing wrong with closed source, that's how most software is written my friend.

OK, so I misunderstood him; my mistake. I agree with the rest - I just like the idea of open source software better. :)

c'mon, it's called capitalism. If you don't like it, there are plenty of communist countries who would love to take you in.

(a) I don't wanna live in a so called communist country, Switzerland's fine.

(b) Did you notice, too, that "communist countries" are getting fewer and fewer these days? If you wanna make people move there you better make them move quick. ;)

[afterthefall]

Wow...talk about making a response difficult. I'll keep this all in one post for the simplicity of replying. Anyways, moving along....

What does this have to do with anything? 8 ways to do what? Update your computer? What does this have to do with the "MS is spying on me!" myth?

My argument really has nothing to do with whether or not "MS is spying on me" is mythical or not, but you may find it interesting to look at http://www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft.htm . Near the very top, there are actually 16 different ways that MS has access to your computer. The question that preempts "what are they doing with them" is "why do they need them?"

Ummmm.... I don't understand, are you saying that users can't choose when and where to update their XP boxen? Users can turn off, automatic update you know and then simply navigate to windowsupdate and manually select the updates you want.

True. Windows Updates can be turned off. This is especially effective when there are other ways of accomplishing the same task. Redundancy in systems is an essential tenet of making a system failsafe.

This has got to be one of th silliest arguments I've ever read. Ya, you gotta have a license to run licensed software, otherwise it's friggin illegal dude. Please tell me how this is different from most software companies? Oracle, Novell, etc? You have to pay for their software my friend, it's called capitalism!

The legality of the issue is no different than any other rules of ownership. to own a car you need a title, to own land you need a deed, and so on. The difference lies in the actual implementation of it.

Let's look how silly your argument can become if we apply it to different situations:...
-------------------------------------------------
As an example, I work in a university computer ... I'd say that the total number of people on campus nears 15,000. If each one of these makes $10,000 a year, that's $150,000,000 a year total.

Actually, you're quite correct here. 15,000 people times $10,000 in salary a year is $150,000,000. It is certainly a lot of money, but there is nothing at all silly about it. Continuing your example...

How much manpower would it take to verify and account for every dollar given to Uncle Sam. I don't know exactly, but it would be a hell of a lot. It would require that a major reallocation of resources be diverted from normal operation, which would in turn strain, if not completely interrupt, normal operation. Why would a country's tax system such as the USA's do such a thing? Greed. There is no other plausible answer!!

Fortunately, the far more reasonable IRS (never thought that I'd ever use that in a sentence), this does not happen. Singular people get audited, corporations get audited, but entire towns do not get audited. The IRS is reasonable enough to realize that this would be an exercise in excessiveness.

Ummmmm... hello, what is Microsoft altering? exes? dlls?

If we consider the actual nature of a software update, which is replacing older software with newer software, I'll have to answer with a resounding yes here.

Please explain how updating software is not benificial to the users.

This purely depends on the nature of the update. Since Microsoft software is Bug-Free(tm), they only update to add new features. New features mean new code, which means larger programs. This creates a snowball effect in terms of system requirements.

Another way you can think of it is like this - if it already works then why does it need to be changed?

You know afterthfall "You don't have to be an Microsoft Bigot to like
Linux."

I'm actually not a "Microsoft Bigot" as you'd like to think. My fiancee uses Windows XP, and I use her machine for a few tasks that my current box can't do (we are also comparing an Athlon 2.4Ghz XP box with an AMD K6 450 GHZ Gentoo box). I provide support for MS machines for the computer lab I work for, which houses 500 or so 2kPro boxes. There are some things that I appreciate in a windows box, but for my own personal use, I prefer linux.

Cheers!

- atf

[El_Cu_Guy]

posted by a couple of <insert something nasty here>
blah blah blah web servers collect information about you. You are a paranoid freak.

Are you serious? Wow That's amazing! Not really. Obviously you fail to grasp the concept of phoning home.

When I go to Yahoo.com I fully expect the web server to collect some type of information about me. What is NOT acceptable is for that same information for some reason or another to be sent to a Microsoft server when I visit Yahoo!

You honestly sound quite paranoid yourself. Do you even know how much info they is about you online? you phone number, addy, et...

Any information about me isn't open for public review. I don't fill out a bunch of stuff. Sure you can look at my Profile and find that I live in Lee's Summit, MO but do you know what street? No. Do a Google search for my name and you'll find thousands of pages about anyone but me.

When you go to by your groceries and you have to give them that little "preferred club" card to get your discount, they are recording what YOU buy and selling it.

Price Chopper has the Chopper Shopper card. I use it. Most card applications include boxes you can check to opt out of certain criteria. Sure I allow my information to be collected by Price Chopper but elected to prevent them from sharing that infomation with third parties. Therefore they collect marketing information about people in the ### area code. I'm just a number they don't send me coupons.

With my old card I selected to have my information shared only with companies that would not share my information further. I liked the free stuff (although they sent me Gillete Mach 3s even though I use Shick Xtreme 3s).

Oh look my inbox is empty. No spam? I wonder why.

[Icarus]

This is pointless...let's close this one